RVs and bad workmanship by the factories

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sliderule

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For anyone here who may own an RV and reads RV forums they would know that quality control is a significant issue in the RV industry. I know we have definitely had our share of issues on our RV and one we previously owned even got replaced by the factory under warranty due to some serious issues.

I was replacing an SCD receptacle on the weekend simply to change it's color. What I found, to me at least, is quite bothersome. As can be seen in the first photo, the hots and neutrals are only pushed onto one of the terminals instead of two resulting in the receptacle only being able to carry 1/2 it's 15 amp rating. Also, the jacket doesn't extend into the device as required. The 2nd photo is from a previous RV we owned and is another brand and in that one, a hot conductor is also not pushed into both terminals. The terminal is damaged and it appears as if they used a screwdriver or pliers instead of the correct tool to push the wires in. I also previously found two receptacles with reverse polarity and a completely loose wire at a breaker in our current RV and issues with the 12 VDC system (both RVs mentioned here were bought new).

The NEC has an entire article covering electrical requirements for RVs and RV parks. That is great but the RV manufacturers do not have licensed electricians on staff or an inspection process in place. There are no PEs or government electrical inspectors that inspect the work and there is no agency to file a complaint with. With no oversight, there is no incentive to do work correctly and the manufacturers don't have to worry about repercussions and bad or sub-standard work happens as a result.

Is there a fundamental problem with the way the RV industry is in regards to electrical work? Is there anything that can or should be done when you find something of concern? Who would a person contact anyway? RVs are built in one state and shipped all over the US and to Canada so which jurisdiction could or would be responsible? Between what happens with RVs and also RV parks, I can't believe the things I've learned and it's so unlike the way things work in the construction industry. If I am finding the problems I have, they can't be unique to our RV.

Thanks!

DSCF0134.jpg o8XqSggm.jpg
 
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cowboyjwc said:
I don't see the issue with the first photo as there is a connection point so it only needs to be stabbed in at one point.
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The manufacturer's instructions state that wires need to be stabbed onto both terminals. I haven't gone looking for the applicable UL standard but would assume they are listed to have both terminals used and the manufacturer's instructions would correspond?
 
sliderule said:
The manufacturer's instructions state that wires need to be stabbed onto both terminals. I haven't gone looking for the applicable UL standard but would assume they are listed to have both terminals used and the manufacturer's instructions would correspond?
Click to expand...

Can you give a part number for the receptacle? I have never seen instructions like those you describe.


I do see that the duplex receptacle is one that I would never expect to be used in standard construction where the NEC must be followed, and the construction does look remarkably flimsy.
It seems entirely possible that a single IPC contact may not be sufficient to carry the rated current.
 
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GoldDigger said:
Can you give a part number for the receptacle? I have never seen instructions like those you describe.


I do see that the duplex receptacle is one that I would never expect to be used in standard construction where the NEC must be followed, and the construction does look remarkably flimsy.
It seems entirely possible that a single IPC contact may not be sufficient to carry the rated current.
Click to expand...

Link to pdf instructions: http://www.hubbell-wirecon.com/literature/InstallationGuide.pdf
 
Thanks.

Interesting devices.

I do not see an explicit statement that the wire connect to both slots, although following their description will have that result.

I also see that there is no specific tool for inserting the wires, but rather the back cover performs that function.
I can see workers taking shortcuts on that and messing up big.
 
GoldDigger said:
Thanks.

Interesting devices.

I do not see an explicit statement that the wire connect to both slots, although following their description will have that result.

I also see that there is no specific tool for inserting the wires, but rather the back cover performs that function.
I can see workers taking shortcuts on that and messing up big.
Click to expand...

Then you did not pay attention to the instructions. On page 6, figure 7 there is a shot of the tool. See here for a closeup of the tool on page A14 of the Wirecon catalog. It is also used to cut and split the NM in the middle of the run.
 
sliderule said:
For anyone here who may own an RV and reads RV forums they would know that quality control is a significant issue in the RV industry. I know we have definitely had our share of issues on our RV and one we previously owned even got replaced by the factory under warranty due to some serious issues.

I was replacing an SCD receptacle on the weekend simply to change it's color. What I found, to me at least, is quite bothersome. As can be seen in the first photo, the hots and neutrals are only pushed onto one of the terminals instead of two resulting in the receptacle only being able to carry 1/2 it's 15 amp rating. Also, the jacket doesn't extend into the device as required. The 2nd photo is from a previous RV we owned and is another brand and in that one, a hot conductor is also not pushed into both terminals. The terminal is damaged and it appears as if they used a screwdriver or pliers instead of the correct tool to push the wires in. I also previously found two receptacles with reverse polarity and a completely loose wire at a breaker in our current RV and issues with the 12 VDC system (both RVs mentioned here were bought new).

The NEC has an entire article covering electrical requirements for RVs and RV parks. That is great but the RV manufacturers do not have licensed electricians on staff or an inspection process in place. There are no PEs or government electrical inspectors that inspect the work and there is no agency to file a complaint with. With no oversight, there is no incentive to do work correctly and the manufacturers don't have to worry about repercussions and bad or sub-standard work happens as a result.

Is there a fundamental problem with the way the RV industry is in regards to electrical work? Is there anything that can or should be done when you find something of concern? Who would a person contact anyway? RVs are built in one state and shipped all over the US and to Canada so which jurisdiction could or would be responsible? Between what happens with RVs and also RV parks, I can't believe the things I've learned and it's so unlike the way things work in the construction industry. If I am finding the problems I have, they can't be unique to our RV.

Thanks!

View attachment 17630 View attachment 17632
Click to expand...

You are correct. It's been that way for as long as I can remember, and I first worked on RV's in the 80's. Double wides are almost as bad.
 
gadfly56 said:
Then you did not pay attention to the instructions. On page 6, figure 7 there is a shot of the tool. See here for a closeup of the tool on page A14 of the Wirecon catalog. It is also used to cut and split the NM in the middle of the run.
Click to expand...
And on page 18 it describes alternate methods (admittedly not for initial installation, but still valid).
The point I was trying to make was that the OP described using a screwdriver instead of the proper tool to initially seat the wires, while the "tool" that does the seating of the wires is in fact the back cover of the device. So in that sense there is no excuse for a poor assembly because the tool was not available. It is just flat out improper technique.

As for slitting and forming, the 824 tool certainly does that also, but the instructions mention doing that you can also (carefully) use an electrician's knife and fingers.
 
gadfly56 said:
Then you did not pay attention to the instructions. On page 6, figure 7 there is a shot of the tool. See here for a closeup of the tool on page A14 of the Wirecon catalog. It is also used to cut and split the NM in the middle of the run.
Click to expand...
Then on another page it shows using a C-clamp or a pair of channel locks.
 
GoldDigger said:
And on page 18 it describes alternate methods (admittedly not for initial installation, but still valid).
The point I was trying to make was that the OP described using a screwdriver instead of the proper tool to initially seat the wires, while the "tool" that does the seating of the wires is in fact the back cover of the device. So in that sense there is no excuse for a poor assembly because the tool was not available. It is just flat out improper technique.

As for slitting and forming, the 824 tool certainly does that also, but the instructions mention doing that you can also (carefully) use an electrician's knife and fingers.
Click to expand...

I suppose I could, but most of you guys get kinda cranky if someone tries to walk off with your fingers. :D
 
The Hubbell/Wirecon tool (more like a contraption) is in the pic below. Hubbell has a how to youtube vid here: https://youtu.be/Tuo2EFKfJ58

Slater has a good set of installation instructions with clear diagrams (clear diagrams are always good, lol) here: http://mobilehomepartsstore.com/Merchant2/documents/scd-instructions.pdf In it they state "An end-of-line receptacle must have each lineconductor extending approximately 1⁄4" beyond itsdouble line terminal as shown" It says must extend past the double line terminal and not it's optional to end at just one terminal.

The other day I saw one of the SCD manufacturers showing which UL standard that they comply with and can't find it today. Will try and find it as it would be interesting to see what it says. If you think about the surface area of a round copper wire in contact with the "stabs", it would a lot less compared to a screw terminal. That's where I think it's important have the wires pushed into both stabs, and of course properly.

These things do seem somewhat oddball to those who haven't seen them before or had to work with them.



slider1.jpg
 
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sliderule said:
The Hubbell/Wirecon tool (more like a contraption) is in the pic below. Hubbell has a how to youtube vid here: https://youtu.be/Tuo2EFKfJ58

Slater has a good set of installation instructions with clear diagrams (clear diagrams are always good, lol) here: http://mobilehomepartsstore.com/Merchant2/documents/scd-instructions.pdf In it they state "An end-of-line receptacle must have each lineconductor extending approximately 1⁄4" beyond itsdouble line terminal as shown" It says must extend past the double line terminal and not it's optional to end at just one terminal.

The other day I saw one of the SCD manufacturers showing which UL standard that they comply with and can't find it today. Will try and find it as it would be interesting to see what it says. If you think about the surface area of a round copper wire in contact with the "stabs", it would a lot less compared to a screw terminal. That's where I think it's important have the wires pushed into both stabs, and of course properly.

These things do seem somewhat oddball to those who haven't seen them before or had to work with them.



View attachment 17633
Click to expand...

Looks like that tool is in fact intended to seat the wires without using the back cover as a die.
(from its appearance and from the fact that it mentions multiple wires, which is a multi-step pain using the back cover.) :)
 
I maintain that the color coded NM cable was made for the manufactured home, RV industry, if the same people were installing sod, the crew leader would be yelling "green side up", "green side up".
 
If the RV is intended to be sold in Washington, our factory assembled structures division of Labor and Industries require a green label that means it complies with our and the NEC requirements. Where I live there are some new prefab apartments being made in china and there is a factory assembled structures inspector on site for inspections
 
tom baker said:
If the RV is intended to be sold in Washington, our factory assembled structures division of Labor and Industries require a green label that means it complies with our and the NEC requirements. Where I live there are some new prefab apartments being made in china and there is a factory assembled structures inspector on site for inspections
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Interesting, but what does that mean exactly? Does the RV manufacturer just stick on the green label and they are done with it? is there ever any sort of outside inspection on RVs sold in Wa., random or otherwise, by the div. of Labor and Industries or an electrical inspector at the state or local level?

I have to wonder if if I were to pursue this with the Electrical Safety Branch here in BC if they might do anything as we bought our RV here and they must comply with CSA requirements for sale here.

The whole world of RV electrical, covering RVs themselves, RV park wiring and things like surge suppressors, extension cords, adapters & "autoformers" is just so different from the building construction world. Sometimes I can't believe what I see and hear about and give my head a shake...
 
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tom baker said:
If the RV is intended to be sold in Washington, our factory assembled structures division of Labor and Industries require a green label that means it complies with our and the NEC requirements. Where I live there are some new prefab apartments being made in china and there is a factory assembled structures inspector on site for inspections
Click to expand...
Pre fab housing is understandable - it gets converted to real estate for the most part. RV's, I'm sure many come and go that weren't even sold in the state, that is part of what they are for.
 
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