S.O.S...Newbie Foreman (JIW), NO "Go To" Man, Etc

[sparky252]

Hi There!

Am hoping you can bombard me w/ advice for running one's first job...commercial. This may not be the best spot for this post at this forum. Maybe you can also recommend another website or 2, if needed.

Short version: Got thrown prints, take-off (huh?) and sortof "air dropped" into this job, my first. Luckily a one-man job so I am not embarrassing myself in front of other electricians (except maybe here). You could also say I am doing this job "in a vaccuum" for numerous reasons....I am on my own & good planning would go far. I wanna do a good job.

To start, I could use some basic advice/tips on generic job stuff like: RFI's, "Extras"/Change Orders, who gets asked what questions, etc.

When to call for/time inspections or would that vary by job and AHJ. Wondering if I need to call for a rough inspection b4 drywall if most area open or accessible via 2X4 luminaires (just getting used to that new, fancy word), above units, egg grating. Guess better call the AHJ, state level.

Some job specifics: Remodeling small, commercial "sub-kitchen"...no actually food prep, fryer, etc. Thermo/Rethermization units maintaining food temp of pre-portioned food on individual serving trays, walk-in cooler.

Prints very elementary as well as numerous conflictions, such as: # of recepts, voltage of recepts, special equipment electrical needs, mystery special equipment/location. Few ckt #'s, no disco calc's, think architect made up his own symbols (some on legend). What's DFC (120v, 1ph DFC?)..Direct feed connection?

Not sure customer is in this case.

GC rep, I suspect knows little. But definiely introverted, quiet and seems to have little info. Damn, he can run a jackhammer tho.

No "GoTo" man at shop or otherwise for several reasons.

There's more but that's a good start. I just stopped to get advice from a retired, wise electrician. He said, "I don't know. I or my former tool partner have not had to size that (or whatever) for 30 years. It's always on the prints". Well...it ain't this time.

Again, I want to do a good job and in a timely manner.

I thank you in advance for any thoughts/advice!

 

[mdshunk]

You might want to re-evaluate who you're working for, and why they'd drop you into this with (no offense) no clue or training on running your own work. Hopefully your pay rate offsets the frustration they are causing you right now.

 

[sparky252]

But don't you think it is good experience? Somehow, in spite of all this the days go fast and it is sortof peaceful. Oh, my communication to the outside world is very limited too. It is in a very secure job location.

 

[mdshunk]

But don't you think it is good experience? Somehow, in spite of all this the days go fast and it is sortof peaceful. Oh, my communication to the outside world is very limited too. It is in a very secure job location.

Sure, it's good experience. I don't know about you, but I always hated spinning my wheels trying to figure stuff out that I'm sure somebody knows... but I can't find whoever that is to ask. I do some work on military bases too, and if it's not on the print and there's no spec, it seems like nobody knows or wants to share. Best of luck to you.

 

[celtic]

Short version: Got thrown prints, take-off (huh?) and sortof "air dropped" into this job, my first.

I thank you in advance for any thoughts/advice!

We call that:

Baptism by Fire

​

I'm a bit pressed for time right now, but I'll add some actual thoughts/advice later....
In the meantime, remember...

An error by another does not constitute an emergency on your part


​

 

[dbeasley488]

Hi There!

Am hoping you can bombard me w/ advice for running one's first job...commercial. This may not be the best spot for this post at this forum. Maybe you can also recommend another website or 2, if needed.

Short version: Got thrown prints, take-off (huh?) and sortof "air dropped" into this job, my first. Luckily a one-man job so I am not embarrassing myself in front of other electricians (except maybe here). You could also say I am doing this job "in a vaccuum" for numerous reasons....I am on my own & good planning would go far. I wanna do a good job.

To start, I could use some basic advice/tips on generic job stuff like: RFI's, "Extras"/Change Orders, who gets asked what questions, etc.

When to call for/time inspections or would that vary by job and AHJ. Wondering if I need to call for a rough inspection b4 drywall if most area open or accessible via 2X4 luminaires (just getting used to that new, fancy word), above units, egg grating. Guess better call the AHJ, state level.

Some job specifics: Remodeling small, commercial "sub-kitchen"...no actually food prep, fryer, etc. Thermo/Rethermization units maintaining food temp of pre-portioned food on individual serving trays, walk-in cooler.

Prints very elementary as well as numerous conflictions, such as: # of recepts, voltage of recepts, special equipment electrical needs, mystery special equipment/location. Few ckt #'s, no disco calc's, think architect made up his own symbols (some on legend). What's DFC (120v, 1ph DFC?)..Direct feed connection?

Not sure customer is in this case.

GC rep, I suspect knows little. But definiely introverted, quiet and seems to have little info. Damn, he can run a jackhammer tho.

No "GoTo" man at shop or otherwise for several reasons.

There's more but that's a good start. I just stopped to get advice from a retired, wise electrician. He said, "I don't know. I or my former tool partner have not had to size that (or whatever) for 30 years. It's always on the prints". Well...it ain't this time.

Again, I want to do a good job and in a timely manner.

I thank you in advance for any thoughts/advice!

RFI's and CO's go to the GC then to Architect and so on to the electrical designer. If the prints are that bad wouldn't the permit office reject the plan?
You can also call the electrical designer or whoever stamped the plans. If there is one.

 

[dingokangaroo]

there are times you must just use your best judgement and talk to the GC. he will help and if not.....talk to your super or PM. he will help if he understands that you are trying your best.

 

[sparky252]

Thanks for the direction to send job questions too. I'll be dense and ask if you're saying I send RFI's to general contractor and they (GC) either answer themselves or pass on to architect/engineer

OR

I decide whom the question pertains to and I send to either the: GC, arch., engineer or other.

I am hearing from the few experienced JIW's that I asked in my local area, it is common to have some degree of mistakes on prints, as is installation mistakes on the other end. S**t happens. But, these prints vary page to page. I hope the % is usually less.

Thank you again and look forward to learning more at this thread.

 

[sparky252]

"Baptism by Fire" .....Cool! I mean,That's Hot! Or, am I in my own Hell for awhile?

We call that:

Baptism by Fire

​

I'm a bit pressed for time right now, but I'll add some actual thoughts/advice later....
In the meantime, remember...

An error by another does not constitute an emergency on your part


​

 

[sparky252]

Maybe should start w/ a specific question

Maybe should start w/ a specific question

Maybe should start w/ a specific question..

The first issue I noticed was some recepts (2-4) on new countertop & existing reach-in frig, 7' tall. The # of recepts, voltage & ht vary between 3 prints. Food service equip contractor (FSEC) says none are his stuff except the existing frig, 90" recept, id'd as ckt K-2 on arch. print.

So, the other (1-3) are just 120v, general purpose countertop for toaster, etc. BUT,

FSEC shows quantity (3), 120v, 48" to bottom.

Arch., pg e-2 shows only (1) not (3), id'd as ckt #k-4, symbol I had thought was for duplex, wall, 44" center. But looking at it right now, closely to the symbols on outlet schedule on same page...it looks like a hybrid symbol between duplex and GFCI Hospital Grade on emergency circuit. Dang, that's a brand new question. Where's the other 2 recepts?

Further, FS-2 pg (food service), by arch, shows all (4) recepts but (1) is a single, 208v, SCR (single convience recept), all at a 3rd elevation, 50" whatever. Wondering what equipment that may be for.

There is a new handsink next to end of countertop.I haven't scaled it yet but think I'll GFCI all of them to be safe (except the mystery 120/208v, single/duplex aka DCO (duplex convience outlet). Ho$pital grade might be good idea but probably need to get that cleared w/ someone, in writing.

I got the top kitchen boss (customer, but customer rep.) in for a visit. She had more questions than answers so maybe that wasn't a good idea. I was trying to find out what existing small appliance equipment they use, where it was being stored during remodel, etc. After talking to her, I was starting to believe the mystery 120/208, single/duplex was for her "Blixer", hybrid between blender & mixer. She claimed it had been plugged into the existing 208v, 40A recept on existing wall. One of the 2 id'd on print as "20A/3p recepts to move to new equipment location" IAW E-2 print page.

After customer non-rep left, the GC rep did finally show some life and clearly stated he didn't want her called to jobsite which gives her a chance to request changes. I was just trying to gather clues/info.

Sorry...there's more....

I couldn't find blixer to verify.

Frst RFI's ever this week and one was for the W.T.F. mystery recept. Just b4 I left work for weekend, 2 semingly capable kitchen workers stood in door so I started picking their brains. They said that the Blixer actually used the 240, 20A recpet and they knew the shape, they immediately took me to that darn blixer for me to verify and told me the 208v 40A was for a coffee urn which had been living in a dumpster/landfill for years. "Don't listen to the (kitchen) boss cause she don't know nothing." I thanked them and asked that they stop by again next week.

I was just trying to ask a specific question but I see it involved a long story first. Is this typical? This amount of conflicts/versions?

A question: Circuits: 2-4 recepts, in a commercial, hospital sub-kitchen, would you put the reach-in frig on a single recept, dedicated circuit. Then the 1-3 general purpose, 120v on 2 add'l circuits. Countertop "L" shaped, about 18' long, handsink at end of short "L" leg. Get clear answer to the W.T.F. recept...120/208 or really a 240v for the blixer.

GFCI's for freezers and frigs? Hospital Grade? Emergency power duplex?

Maybe showing drawings vs writen word would be clearer.

P.S. I roughed-in (4) single gang mud boxes last week when Brickies were there. I figured the least of all evils would be to have a spare box w/ ss blank cover vs smashing thru their brand new ceramic faced block to add 1.

Thanks

 

[adavey]

i was an union electricain, before i became an engineer (i think). I might have a little to offer.

Advice, ask for catalog cuts on specific equipment (lighting and power). This will determine your "rough in" location and/or if the equipment is "hard wired" or plug/twistlock connected.

One more thing, look at the HVAC plans and plumbing plans before running conduit.

 

[wirenut1980]

If I had this many questions I would try to schedule a meeting with whoever drew up the plans and get some information face to face if possible. If not, then send them your long list of RFI's. It seems like there are a lot of unexplained equipment and contradictory information on the drawings. Also, the designer should not assume that everyone abbreviates the same or uses the same acronyms as he/she.

 

[sparky252]

i was an union electricain, before i became an engineer (i think). I might have a little to offer.

ADavy...Thanks for the advice. Not much runing in ceiling so good and existing 120/208v 3p panel is nearly empty. I have seen somewhere a reference to an exhaust fan, existing.

Quote above, you went over to the other side? Engineer, you think. Just kidding. I'm 3rd generation JIW & siblings. All of them were/are smart electricians, but I seem to have gotten giped w/ the electron genes. I still try anyway.

Grandpa, the first, was born the year of the first unofficial IBEW formation in St. Louis, 1896 or was that 1897.

 

[sparky252]

If I had this many questions I would try to schedule a meeting with whoever drew up the plans and get some information face to face if possible. If not, then send them your long list of RFI's. It seems like there are a lot of unexplained equipment and contradictory information on the drawings. Also, the designer should not assume that everyone abbreviates the same or uses the same acronyms as he/she.

I think I'd rather send written RFI's vs meeting. This would leave a clearer paper trail but more importantly, I would possibily avoid looking like I don't know what I am doing (which is true).

You know, keep quiet and let 'em guess instead of opening my mouth and proving them right. If I took a meeting w/ them, they might ask ME questions. That would not be a good thing right now.

Speaking of acronyms, what do you think "EC-120/1P, 6.3 FLA DFC" means? The DFC....My guess is Direct Feed Connection...it's in a "JC", junction ceiling box.

Thanks!

 

[George Stolz]

I don't have a lot of experience in what you're dealing with, but I know this: I would not listen to Stan the Fry Cook who knows more than Steve on Grill. Obey documents, not people. Get everything in writing. If something isn't clear, write it on a list and ask a question. Move on to the next item.

They may well know what they're talking about, but you can't present (even a tape recording of) a conversation with an employee when someone with authority says, "What you have installed is not what I asked for." You will wind up changing it for free, for trying to get ahead of the game.

Bad or conflicting plans add time to the job. Time added to a job needs to be billed. So you need to track all your time. Cover your tail, because everyone else is busy covering theirs.

I think it's pretty callous of your boss to dump this on you. I hope you come out of this looking like a winner with a satisfied client and happy boss. But it doesn't appear he's done you any favors.

 

[George Stolz]

I forgot: take a look at 210.8(B)(2). Notice there are no exceptions. "All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed..." require GFCI protection in a kitchen, regardless of their intended use. Installing a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit for a fridge will not relieve you of the requirement to GFCI protect the receptacle.

 

[celtic]

what do you think "EC-120/1P, 6.3 FLA DFC" means?

Electrical Connection/COnduit
120v
Single Phase
6.3 Amps (FLA)

DFC???

The flames will burn high on this one. (The "one" being YOU)


That kitchen will be a huge headache for you unless/until you get some accurate drawings from someone. If you are running conduit, you might be able to run them to a point, then leave it be until the powers that be get their heads outta their butts....this frees up some time for you get the other things done that are not written in several different languages on several different pages.

 

[sparky252]

Electrical Connection/COnduit
120v
Single Phase
6.3 Amps (FLA)

DFC???

Thanks Celtic Warrior but I had all that, I was inquiring about the D.F.C. part.

I had lsited it all so you could see how this person was using DFC. I think I'll just make up my own meaning for DFC and maybe some of my own like: W.T.F. recept.

DFC, best guess is Direct Feed Connection. Clues are it is listed only at the ceiling junction boxes.

You guys got any other acronyms made up yo self?

P.S. I am tossing some pipe up on the ceiling heading towards the general direction but will stop at a point where I can go in any of the 4 or 5 possible versions.

 

[sparky252]

I forgot: take a look at 210.8(B)(2). Notice there are no exceptions. "All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed..." require GFCI protection in a kitchen, regardless of their intended use. Installing a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit for a fridge will not relieve you of the requirement to GFCI protect the receptacle.

Thanks, I'll check it out but I got it in my head that I don't have to for a frig, dedicated. How to address nuisance trips than? Defrosting food in freezer.

 

[George Stolz]

A GFCI should not trip supplying a fridge. If it does, then the fridge is in need of repair or replacement. The requirement was actually brought on by an electrocution in a commercial kitchen from a fridge, if memory serves.

Here are some interesting threads on the issue:
Court - Ryan goes to court to defend applying the NEC
Commercial kitchen receptacles - The matter discussed. Roger makes point that you could monitor and alarm the fridge temperature if tripping is a concern.