Sad news

[jxofaltrds]

Read this: http://www.nbc4columbus.com/news/2224031/detail.html

Any ideas? I know there is not much info there.

Utility guys any guesses?

Mike P.

PS My gut says this might get swept under the rug.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Sad news

Mike,
Many times light poles and traffic lights are installed without an EGC. You should never touch a metallic pole of any type on any public right of way as many have a hot to pole fault and no EGC to clear the fault.
Don

 

[bennie]

Re: Sad news

It takes two points of contact to cause electrocution. Tests should determine which point has become energized.

Metal bridge decking becoming energized, and not bonded to the pole, will be lethal when combined with the equipment ground wire.

The article indicates the exact cause has not been determined. I would check for active circuits on a time clock with one shorted to the deck. The tests should be made in the same time frame as the fatality.

This is all just my personal speculation, but I would like to know the exact cause of this incident.

 

[roger]

Re: Sad news

I have had two occasions where I know of voltage on public poles.

Once in my teens before my electrical career, I touched a pole and a parking meter and received a pretty good jolt. Not knowing any better, I tricked a couple of buddies in to doing it just for grins.

Today I would probably call 911.

The second time was a few years ago when working on a private sign near a road we could feel a tingle through wet ground near a street light.

Dragging a jumper from a chain link fence we put a meter between the pole and jumper and had over a 100v I don't remember the exact reading. We notified the city and with a nonchalant attitude we were told they would check it out.

Don,

You should never touch a metallic pole of any type on any public right of way

the general public doesn't know this, and has the belief that the "powers that be" protect them. This should be more of a reason for criminal prosecution if neglect is proven.

Roger

[ May 25, 2003, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Sad news

Rogger,
I know that the public doesn't know this, but it is a fact. I'm aware of at least 5 deaths caused by the lack of EGCs on public sidewalks in the past few years. Some of this is because these lights are installed by municipalities who are not subject to the NEC. All traffic signal systems installed to the Illinois DOT standards, prior to 2001, use a driven rod in place of an EGC.
Don

 

[tom baker]

Re: Sad news

Utility wiring is done under the NESC.
The NESC is not as clear as the NEC on the requirement to install an equipment grounding conductor, but rather says equipment shall be grounded in a manner to prevent the buildup of hazardous votltages. The NEC is very clear on the requiment for an equipment grounding conductor and how to size it. I feel that NEC type applications, but that are under the scope of the NESC, should be wired to the NEC. An example of this is utility installed street lighting.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Sad news

Gentlemen

Thank you for the advice.

After listening to the news this morning I was going to appologize for saying that it was not going to be investigated. They stated that outside experts where going to investigate this death.

NOW just a few minutes ago the news showed someone(s) jack-hammering the sidewalk where this death accured.

Funny thing. Both The City of Columbus and AEP have lines under the side walk.

Isn't this a crime scene? Should it not be kept intact?

Hard to point fingers when the evidence is gone.

Mike P.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Sad news

Update

http://www.nbc4columbus.com/news/2227284/detail.html

Mike P.

 

[karl riley]

Re: Sad news

Let's see whether the investigators ignore the lack of an EGC to the light pole. This might be worth following up if they do.
Karl

 

[tom baker]

Re: Sad news

Mike P please keep up posted on the investigation.

 

[bennie]

Re: Sad news

I get hammered by my approach to grounding indiscrimately under the guise of safety.

The last three child fatalities I have heard about are the result of there being proper grounding according to the NEC.

One was a little girl stepping on an exposed bare conductor and then grabbing the grounded pole.

The other was a baby grabbing a frayed TV power cord, and touching the grounded cable connector.

The topic incident, if the surface became energized and the pole is grounded, the same situation is present.

Every one of the incidents were written in reports as improper grounding. The truth is, the installations were in compliance. Had they been improper no one dies.

It seems that other safety procedures are in order for outdoor light poles. The ones we use don't work.

[ May 26, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Sad news

Yes I will keep you informed.

Even though this is a holiday I was able to speak with someone from a prominent news station. They will be contacting me tommorrow.

Karl et. al. at the corner at which I belive this happened(I do not know the exact location yet) 35.9mg was read.

I am keeping my post vague so as not to tip my hand.

Thank you for the support. I have been seeing so many bad things lately that I was wondering if anyone cared.

Mike P.

 

[bennie]

Re: Sad news

Mike: The high magnetic field reading suggests this may be a 2400 volt radial lighting system.
These systems are usually ungrounded. It is possible that one end has faulted. This could account for the high voltage surface at the area where the boy completed the circuit.

 

[bennie]

Re: Sad news

To clarify my previous remarks...If this is a 2400 volt lighting system, there could be a fault at or near one end. The victim completed the second fault near the pole.

 

[gman2003]

Re: Sad news

Hey Bennie,

I believe it would be better said that those unfortunate deaths were not due to proper grounding, but to faulty wiring methods! Why was that wire exposed? Why was that cord frayed? You cited a couple of examples, and given there are more I'm sure. But how many lives have been saved due to proper grounding? Those reports were incorrectly written. It was due to faulty wiring methods, not grounding. You said, "had they been improper(grounding) NO ONE DIES" Huh??? If those particular circumstances you cited were improperly grounded, and those particular individuals did not get electrocuted, then all your doing is delaying the inevitable to another unsuspecting individual somewhere at some point in time. Putting other safety measures into enforcement won't necesarrily make it all better or go away. What is needed is enforcement/inspection of what already is. Obviuosly those frayed & exposed wires were not up to code, and that was the cause, not proper grounding. If that exposed, energized copper was properly insulated, then there would have been no electrocutions.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Sad news

So far no one is listening. Maybe the powers to be have long arms.

2 blocks away (and by chance) I read 70-80mg.

The news today said that they were going to protect the public by installing a fence around the area. And have "experts" in stray voltage coming in and find the problem. This was a city official talking.

I guess I am going to have to call-in some "markers" on this on.

Mike P.(the one with the bulls-eye on his head)

 

[bennie]

Re: Sad news

Gman: What I am saying is neither procedure works to a degree of safety that should be obtained.
I am not against grounding the poles. I am against the belief that grounding is the only and final solution.

There must be other methods developed to protect outdoor wiring in public areas.

I feel this area of our trade is not being handled properly. It seems the children are the victims.

No impedance testing is required to assure a fault will open the breaker.

Grounding and walking away is not the answer. My safety expectations are much higher.

[ May 27, 2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[gman2003]

Re: Sad news

Hey Bennie,

I realize I went off on you a bit on my post. I apologize for that. It just happens that we are working on some campus lighting for a local university here and there are alot of poles that are fed with 480v. and no grounding at all, just the two phase conductors, that's it. I realize that is how it was installed way back when, and in many cases, still is today. But the wiring in these poles is deteriorating and five poles have already short cicuited. If one of these phases ever made contact with the pole the breaker won't open, and, well... When we bring this up to those at the campus they just don't seem to care. I know it would be quite an expense to have everything brought up to code, but considering the other cost, personal safety, it just gets a little aggrevating that some don't seem to care.

[ May 28, 2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: gman2003 ]

 

[bennie]

Re: Sad news

The solution is very simple, for making all poles safe.
Spray hard plastic pick up bed liner up to 6 feet.

 

[charlie]

Re: Sad news

I just got back from Key West (vacation this time) and am still catching up on the piles of work.

It appears that the metal column was not properly grounded to the MGN (multi-grounded neutral that Bennie likes so well ) and perhaps the circuit was not fused. Here at IPL, we fuse all of our street light circuits to prevent this type situation. This is assuming this is a low voltage (below 600 volts) circuit and not a series circuit.

If this were on a pole line, a similar type accident could happen with an open MGN. Assume a tap where the MGN was opened and there was no return except through the earth. At the open point of the MGN, full circuit voltage would be impressed across the open point. I don't see that possibility in this instance.

While discussing the National Electrical Code and National Electrical Safety Code, don?t forget that the NEC is prescriptive based and the NESC is performance based.