Safety is taking a back seat to $$$

[Isaiah]

It seems NEC is becoming less and less important to clients who see saving money as sole means of pleasing management. Upper management has no idea what the NEC is nor could they care less. Enforcing NEC usually entails higher cost, therefore many electricians and engineers are turning a blind eye to code issues so they can keep their jobs. Really SAD

 

[petersonra]

I have not seen that at all. Most places are pretty serious about code compliance but not a cent more. A lot of things that some people think are code are not.

It is not upper management's job to know the code. They have employees or contractors for that purpose.

What kind of actual code issues are you seeing?

 

[infinity]

It seems NEC is becoming less and less important to clients who see saving money as sole means of pleasing management. Upper management has no idea what the NEC is nor could they care less. Enforcing NEC usually entails higher cost, therefore many electricians and engineers are turning a blind eye to code issues so they can keep their jobs. Really SAD

I see that too. In places where the contractor can get away with non-compliance they will do shoddy work. In locales like NYC where there are no rough inspections you might as well throw away the codebook. During final inspections they look for the obvious stuff, much of the time you can get away with the things that won't be seen. The best case scenario is to have an independent consulting firm check the work for both code and contract compliance. That keeps the bean counters from attempting to cut corners because they will likely get caught.

 

[Jraef]

I wonder... do these same corner cutters also run without insurance then? Because in most commercial / industrial indemnity policies there will be a clause stating that all work performed on the premise must be done to relevant code standards, and any violation found in the course of an investigation after an accident can be grounds for denial of covering losses. So by ignoring the code to save money, they are putting their entire business at risk for not being covered should there be a mishap. I had a neighbor once who was an insurance investigator, his entire job was to try to find a way for the insurance company to not have to pay out. Yes, it sucks, but that's what they do and you DON'T want to make it easier for them!

 

[infinity]

I wonder... do these same corner cutters also run without insurance then? Because in most commercial / industrial indemnity policies there will be a clause stating that all work performed on the premise must be done to relevant code standards, and any violation found in the course of an investigation after an accident can be grounds for denial of covering losses. So by ignoring the code to save money, they are putting their entire business at risk for not being covered should there be a mishap. I had a neighbor once who was an insurance investigator, his entire job was to try to find a way for the insurance company to not have to pay out. Yes, it sucks, but that's what they do and you DON'T want to make it easier for them!

A lot of the stuff I see is non-compliant but it isn't necessarily unsafe so not much really happens. Example: you have a 2000 amp feeder with 5 sets of 750 kcmil aluminum (1925 amps) instead of the copper, violation yes, load is typcially not more than 50-60% of the 2000 amps so it will remain that way forever.

 

[petersonra]

A lot of the stuff I see is non-compliant but it isn't necessarily unsafe so not much really happens. Example: you have a 2000 amp feeder with 5 sets of 750 kcmil aluminum (1925 amps) instead of the copper, violation yes, load is typcially not more than 50-60% of the 2000 amps so it will remain that way forever.

That's pretty close though. Probably perfectly safe, even if not compliant. I don't run across many 2000 Amp feeders. I did do some panels that were 1600 Amps though.

 

[__dan]

It is horrible today. I would say in the last ten years I have been on only one job were they did not get bent out of shape if you tried to discuss code.

If the guys have their own licenses I will say very little if I see something. But there is large scale big company, big stuff they are doing with unlicensed people and it should be obvious, if they don't have licenses there is no way they will know code. Those guys do get bent out of shape if you mention anything about a code violation.

I have seen a lot of stuff, I could never do what the licensed competition was doing. But now everyone with a cordless impact is doing electrical, they will actually tell me they are electricians. If you have the skills I see your skills, if not I will check your license to see if I am the only one with one.

It's a problem with very big companies that do know better. They fired those guys and only want the mushers.

 

[petersonra]

What kinds of actual code violations are you seeing?

 

[romex jockey]

different interpretations may not mean ignoring the NEC

~RJ~

 

[infinity]

What kinds of actual code violations are you seeing?

Unsupported vertical runs of cable, sometimes 750 kcmil copper run for 10-15 floors without intermediate supports.
Lack of chocks installed where there are chock bushings and support pull boxes.
Lack of EGC's or bonding jumpers in large FMC.
Pull boxes sized much too small.
Lack of bushings on 4" EMT.
No grounding tails to a metal box where the ungrounded conductors are spliced.
Incorrect OCPD sizes both fuses and circuit breakers.
Three parallel #10 AWG neutrals to a Lutron panel.
EM and normal feeders within the same pull box.
Biggest one I've seen through out a recent huge project dozens of transformers feeding panels with no main OCPD.

OK now I'm tired but there are more...

 

[mbrooke]

The code is no longer about safety, but all about manufacturers on code making panels pleasing their masters. At this point we need a revolution- because law is being used as a marketing scheme.

Edit: I know this thread is about those who willingly violate the NEC- but at the same time its difficult to take a bureaucratic document seriously which is half the time not even rooted on sound electrical theory.

 

[GoldDigger]

...
...But now everyone with a cordless impact is doing electrical, they will actually tell me they are electricians. If you have the skills I see your skills, if not I will check your license to see if I am the only one with one.
...
...

An expat acquaintance in Turkey once said that it is easy to tell which workers are electricians. They are the ones with screwdrivers.

 

[romex jockey]

The code is no longer about safety, but all about manufacturers on code making panels pleasing their masters. At this point we need a revolution- because law is being used as a marketing scheme.

Edit: I know this thread is about those who willingly violate the NEC- but at the same time its difficult to take a bureaucratic document seriously which is half the time not even rooted on sound electrical theory.

Profit cloaked in the guise of safety is the problem with most bureaucracies ~RJ~

 

[jmellc]

The other side of that coin is how screwy the NEC has become. I have lost a lot of respect for it. Arc fault breakers are junk the code has forced on us that serve no purpose but to increase costs. Disallowing backstabbing would solve most arcing problems.

The full load provision of the residential service exception is another example.

I am hearing that the new code will require GFCI for dryers & ranges within 6 feet of water.

I predict that the authorities will drive the trade underground by constantly increasing costs. The only segment of residential work that may benefit is those wiring McMansions.

 

[mbrooke]

The other side of that coin is how screwy the NEC has become. I have lost a lot of respect for it. Arc fault breakers are junk the code has forced on us that serve no purpose but to increase costs. Disallowing backstabbing would solve most arcing problems.

The full load provision of the residential service exception is another example.

I am hearing that the new code will require GFCI for dryers & ranges within 6 feet of water.

I predict that the authorities will drive the trade underground by constantly increasing costs. The only segment of residential work that may benefit is those wiring McMansions.

Wait until GFCI an AFCIs hit commercial and industrial... its in the pipeline.

 

[kwired]

The other side of that coin is how screwy the NEC has become. I have lost a lot of respect for it. Arc fault breakers are junk the code has forced on us that serve no purpose but to increase costs. Disallowing backstabbing would solve most arcing problems.

The full load provision of the residential service exception is another example.

I am hearing that the new code will require GFCI for dryers & ranges within 6 feet of water.

I predict that the authorities will drive the trade underground by constantly increasing costs. The only segment of residential work that may benefit is those wiring McMansions.

Not quite correct but yes there will be more GFCI on those. The dryer - nearly all of them should be required - the fact it is in the "laundry area" is the reason why and doesn't matter if there is a sink or not. The range - depends on location, in the kitchen the receptacle would need to be within six feet of a sink, but a range in a garage, basement or other area mentioned in 210.8 would require GFCI also. Both cases it is the receptacle and not the appliance that kick in the GFCI requirement, so if you direct wired them they still wouldn't need GFCI. But then there is wording that will require GFCI on most typical outdoor AC units even though they are hardwired. They played the safety card on that one over an incident that didn't otherwise meed code in the first place and had improper or missing EGC.

 

[mikeames]

The other side of that coin is how screwy the NEC has become. I have lost a lot of respect for it. Arc fault breakers are junk the code has forced on us that serve no purpose but to increase costs. Disallowing backstabbing would solve most arcing problems.

The full load provision of the residential service exception is another example.

I am hearing that the new code will require GFCI for dryers & ranges within 6 feet of water.

I predict that the authorities will drive the trade underground by constantly increasing costs. The only segment of residential work that may benefit is those wiring McMansions.

I was always on the fence but after TR receps, I lost faith.

 

[jusme123]

The other side of that coin is how screwy the NEC has become. I have lost a lot of respect for it. Arc fault breakers are junk the code has forced on us that serve no purpose but to increase costs. Disallowing backstabbing would solve most arcing problems.

The full load provision of the residential service exception is another example.

I am hearing that the new code will require GFCI for dryers & ranges within 6 feet of water.

I predict that the authorities will drive the trade underground by constantly increasing costs. The only segment of residential work that may benefit is those wiring McMansions.

......disallowing backstabbing would have been the prudent approach, absent money

 

[retirede]

I was always on the fence but after TR receps, I lost faith.

At least TR did no real harm.
They don’t nuisance trip.

 

[jmellc]

At least TR did no real harm.
They don’t nuisance trip.

My biggest issue with them was having to replace a house full of them. I had installed Hubbell brand & homeowner kept calling that they kept messing up. I replaced them all with another brand & no further problem. My opinion of Hubbell plummeted after that. Junk with a high price tag.