Safety is taking a back seat to $$$

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jmellc said:
My biggest issue with them was having to replace a house full of them. I had installed Hubbell brand & homeowner kept calling that they kept messing up. I replaced them all with another brand & no further problem. My opinion of Hubbell plummeted after that. Junk with a high price tag.
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Surprising to hear that, Hubbell has always been premium brand.
 
jusme123 said:
Surprising to hear that, Hubbell has always been premium brand.
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I have broken terminals on their range outlets, very fragile. I have seen many of their 400 watt metal halides with burned shades, cheap platic to enclose a super hot lamp. My church had at least a dozen & nearly all the shades burned a hole dead center.
 
jmellc said:
The other side of that coin is how screwy the NEC has become. I have lost a lot of respect for it.
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Yeah I struggle with this. I have a friend who is also an electrician and he is not into learning or talking code at all. I always hound him to be more involved with learning the code and he said something like, " I have so little respect for that document" and I kinda understand that.
 
electrofelon said:
Yeah I struggle with this. I have a friend who is also an electrician and he is not into learning or talking code at all. I always hound him to be more involved with learning the code and he said something like, " I have so little respect for that document" and I kinda understand that.
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It’s a money racket now. I hate to have such a bad attitude about it but it that is largely where I am. My respect for authority is at an all time low.
 
jmellc said:
The other side of that coin is how screwy the NEC has become. I have lost a lot of respect for it. Arc fault breakers are junk the code has forced on us that serve no purpose but to increase costs. Disallowing backstabbing would solve most arcing problems.

The full load provision of the residential service exception is another example.

I am hearing that the new code will require GFCI for dryers & ranges within 6 feet of water.

I predict that the authorities will drive the trade underground by constantly increasing costs. The only segment of residential work that may benefit is those wiring McMansions.
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why do have a problem with the res service provision
 
Have you guys been to South America or Caribbean’s?
they adopted the nec but there is hardly ever any enforcement.
I have seen a lot of cost saving ideas there, haha .
 
darekelec said:
Have you guys been to South America or Caribbean’s?
they adopted the nec but there is hardly ever any enforcement.
I have seen a lot of cost saving ideas there, haha .
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I did some work on a new house in the Dominican, and they used metric thhn in what looked like 3/8 plastic tubing. They would pull grounds on receptacles, but not lights.
 
hillbilly1 said:
I did some work on a new house in the Dominican, and they used metric thhn in what looked like 3/8 plastic tubing. They would pull grounds on receptacles, but not lights.
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look at this service drop . You may have to enlarge the circles.
it looks like it was snipped off one time.
Euro cafe in a forest in Colombia 2019675DAAB5-1661-4933-9257-56ECF22B68AA.jpeg
 
infinity said:
I see that too. In places where the contractor can get away with non-compliance they will do shoddy work. In locales like NYC where there are no rough inspections you might as well throw away the codebook. During final inspections they look for the obvious stuff, much of the time you can get away with the things that won't be seen. The best case scenario is to have an independent consulting firm check the work for both code and contract compliance. That keeps the bean counters from attempting to cut corners because they will likely get caught.
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Amazing, no rough inspections on any type of work?

I would think the rough would be more important than the final. You can see more of the installation, especially if required to have all j-box covers off.
 
djd said:
why do have a problem with the res service provision
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Article allows 4/0 al to be fused at 200 amps but it must carry the full load of the structure. I installed a 200 amp panel outdoors with feed through lugs, fed a 200 amp panel indoors. I fed an outdoor receptacle beside the main panel. Inspector forced me to either change main breaker to 150 or run larger wire indoors, all because of a 15 amp receptacle outdoors.

I would better understand not allowing the residential exception at all than having such a foolish caveat. Lighten the load but upsize the wire? I know a good place to shove that.
 
jmellc said:
Article allows 4/0 al to be fused at 200 amps but it must carry the full load of the structure. I installed a 200 amp panel outdoors with feed through lugs, fed a 200 amp panel indoors. I fed an outdoor receptacle beside the main panel. Inspector forced me to either change main breaker to 150 or run larger wire indoors, all because of a 15 amp receptacle outdoors.

I would better understand not allowing the residential exception at all than having such a foolish caveat. Lighten the load but upsize the wire? I know a good place to shove that.
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4/0 aluminum can be protected at 200 amps without the residential exception via next size up rule. Connected load can not be more than 180 amps though. Besides your inspector wasn't right on wanting 150 amp breaker, 175 is a standard size, but 4/0 should still been fine on a 200 as long as load calculation was 180 or less.
 
kwired said:
4/0 aluminum can be protected at 200 amps without the residential exception via next size up rule. Connected load can not be more than 180 amps though. Besides your inspector wasn't right on wanting 150 amp breaker, 175 is a standard size, but 4/0 should still been fine on a 200 as long as load calculation was 180 or less.
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Does the next size up rule really apply to services?
 
mbrooke said:
Does the next size up rule really apply to services?
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It applies to conductors.

Though services are the one area where there are rules a little different than for feeders or branch circuits.

For a service conductor supplying a single overcurrent device protection rules require protecting the conductor at it's ampacity, next size up rule can be applied (800 amp and below).

The place where rules may not seem right is with a service conductor supplying multiple overcurrent devices (where permitted of course) those only need to have ampacity to carry the calculated load but the sum of overcurrent protection devices can exceed the ampacity of the conductor.
 
kwired said:
It applies to conductors.

Though services are the one area where there are rules a little different than for feeders or branch circuits.

For a service conductor supplying a single overcurrent device protection rules require protecting the conductor at it's ampacity, next size up rule can be applied (800 amp and below).

The place where rules may not seem right is with a service conductor supplying multiple overcurrent devices (where permitted of course) those only need to have ampacity to carry the calculated load but the sum of overcurrent protection devices can exceed the ampacity of the conductor.
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Did not know that, I always assumed the next size up was not allowed for service conductors technically.
 
mbrooke said:
Did not know that, I always assumed the next size up was not allowed for service conductors technically.
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Now you going to make me look, but I,m pretty certain next size up is fine on service conductors. I'd guess the required overcurrent protection (and disconnect) being outside or near point of entry is part of reason why.
 
kwired said:
Now you going to make me look, but I,m pretty certain next size up is fine on service conductors. I'd guess the required overcurrent protection (and disconnect) being outside or near point of entry is part of reason why.
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After further looking I may be wrong. 230.90 (A) says "not higher than the allowable ampacity of the conductor".

Never been called on this using 4/0 aluminum for 200 amps service at non dwelling, but after seeing this I'm thinking those installations needed to be 250 or use a 175 amp breaker.
 
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