cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
tom nice toy can I ask what you paid for that meter..
sags & swells
- Thread starter ptonsparky
- Start date
- Status
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
I'm 99.9% sure that my loads affected my readings but what's normal? You were surprised to a 1/2V spike. Is that normal and/or caused by your loads?ptonsparky said:
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
cschmid said:
Ebay for $450 +-??. Local tech school had purchased an earlier version quite a few years ago that they would lend out. I was the only one that ever used it. They didin't even use it at the school. Got so I had it more then they so figured it was time to buy my own.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
wptski said:
I wasn't suprised by the spike so much as what I had thought was the lack of the recording on the laptop. If the laptop is quering the 43B for the information while in SS, the spike is already gone. IMO that also explains why the mv are just a bit different on the laptop for any particular time.
In general for SS that would not be much of a problem unless I miss that spike that is occuring on a regular basis. GARs little test with battery & timed measurments might give some insight into that if I am bright enough to figure it out.
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
Your all alone here on this problem as everything on my 43B is mirrored on my PC.ptonsparky said:
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
Never seen a good working 43B that low unless it had LCD screen problems. Maybe the earlier 41B version. There's one listed now on eBay at $600.ptonsparky said:
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
wptski said:
Mmm...may be time for a repair. You don't get any of those little grey peaks as in the bottom screen graphic and if you do they all show up on the laptop while recording in the SS mode? Dang.
Add another $400 to the cost of that 43B. Still reasonable.
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
I won't go into my eBay horror story but buyer beware!ptonsparky said:
Everything that shows on the 43B also shows on my PC. I have v2.03 software, what's yours?
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
2.03. The display does have a screen defect and price was higher but seller agreed to lesser amount after contacting them.
I just got done doing this all over again, and again, and again.
The average reading of the trend & 43 is = to the S&S recording of the laptop. That is what it is supposed to be. It is not supposed to show anything else. Cripes o mighty that took a lot of pounding. Your stamina is good. Now I am going home for a nap.
I just got done doing this all over again, and again, and again.
The average reading of the trend & 43 is = to the S&S recording of the laptop. That is what it is supposed to be. It is not supposed to show anything else. Cripes o mighty that took a lot of pounding. Your stamina is good. Now I am going home for a nap.
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
Are your max peaks/dips the same on the 43B and PC now? I'm not understanding what you mean by average reading! The cursor position gives your max, min and average.ptonsparky said:2.03. The display does have a screen defect and price was higher but seller agreed to lesser amount after contacting them.
I just got done doing this all over again, and again, and again.
The average reading of the trend & 43 is = to the S&S recording of the laptop. That is what it is supposed to be. It is not supposed to show anything else. Cripes o mighty that took a lot of pounding. Your stamina is good. Now I am going home for a nap.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
The cursor position on the 43 and the "Trend" downloaded from the 43 to the laptop are identical in min/avg/max readings. The simultaneous recording of sags & swells on the laptop only records the average to the laptop.
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
Look at your data block, min and max for the whole recording. Enable the cursors, move them to a max or min peak/dip and tell me don't the min and max??? Where are you getting this average reading from???ptonsparky said:
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
080816-1529 EST
bill:
Here are photos of my pole transformer and wiring. There is not a primary neutral and therefore for my purposes the primary is a delta source. It may be a Y at the substation and grounded at that point. But that is some distance from me and hard to imagine any earth currents relating to such grounding unless there is a fault somewhere. I think leakage, including capacitance to ground, is a greater source of ground currents in my yard.
http://beta-a2.com/misc_tmp_photos.html
It was hard to determine that there was no primary neutral because of the street light wiring. The final determinant is photo P5 where it is clear that only 3 primary wires go to the rest of the block. You may have this same sort of primary if it has not been upgraded.
The key identifier is whether or not a neutral on the secondary side of the transformer propagates from your transformer to other transformers. Also if your transformer has only one primary insulator, then it means that it is a single phase load on a Y system. In this case one end of the primary is connected to the center tap of the secondary and then the secondary neutral is also the high voltage neutral.
We are both Detroit Edison and there appears to be a lot of my type of distribution around. Also I have property in Dearborn and even though the area was platted in the 1920s the primary has been recently upgraded to a Y system. Thus the area age is not a direct indicator. In my AA area the subdivision was platted about 1960.
On a different subject --- anytime in the last few days when I measure frequency it is mostly 60.00 or 59.99 .
My daughter's home has a primary Y system and I need to make some measurements there and see if there are higher ground potentials.
.
bill:
Here are photos of my pole transformer and wiring. There is not a primary neutral and therefore for my purposes the primary is a delta source. It may be a Y at the substation and grounded at that point. But that is some distance from me and hard to imagine any earth currents relating to such grounding unless there is a fault somewhere. I think leakage, including capacitance to ground, is a greater source of ground currents in my yard.
http://beta-a2.com/misc_tmp_photos.html
It was hard to determine that there was no primary neutral because of the street light wiring. The final determinant is photo P5 where it is clear that only 3 primary wires go to the rest of the block. You may have this same sort of primary if it has not been upgraded.
The key identifier is whether or not a neutral on the secondary side of the transformer propagates from your transformer to other transformers. Also if your transformer has only one primary insulator, then it means that it is a single phase load on a Y system. In this case one end of the primary is connected to the center tap of the secondary and then the secondary neutral is also the high voltage neutral.
We are both Detroit Edison and there appears to be a lot of my type of distribution around. Also I have property in Dearborn and even though the area was platted in the 1920s the primary has been recently upgraded to a Y system. Thus the area age is not a direct indicator. In my AA area the subdivision was platted about 1960.
On a different subject --- anytime in the last few days when I measure frequency it is mostly 60.00 or 59.99 .
My daughter's home has a primary Y system and I need to make some measurements there and see if there are higher ground potentials.
.
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
Here's a quick picture I took of the can in my backyard, just replaced with pole in 04. I never noticed the wire going to a ground rod on the old pole but it may have been on the backside out of view. I'm not sure how many homes are on this one but it's at least four. No lighting on this one. I'm not too knowledgable on transformers. Maybe you can tell me something about it!
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Look at "Record 1". Find the X1 cursor values of Y1: 178 181 184. X1 cursor is off to the far left.
181 is the value that would correspond to X1 cursor value of Y1 for the middle graphic "Vrms(ac+dc)" if X1 cursor was at the same point as Record 1.
It is hard to see on these graphics because there is not much for variation in min/max and I failed to get the clocks coordinated.
If you are interested in a file send me a PM.
181 is the value that would correspond to X1 cursor value of Y1 for the middle graphic "Vrms(ac+dc)" if X1 cursor was at the same point as Record 1.
It is hard to see on these graphics because there is not much for variation in min/max and I failed to get the clocks coordinated.
If you are interested in a file send me a PM.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
080816-1712 EST
bill:
The wire at the top of the pole is the hot line of the Y primary supply. The three insulators on the side of the can are the 120-0-120 secondary.
The three wires horizontally to the left probably go to your house because of the angle of the photo. The center of the three is the neutral and mechanically terminates on the pole.
There are three moderately heavy insulated wires that go from pole to pole. One is neutral and will be common to both your low voltage neutral and the primary high voltage neutral. I can not see which one from the photo. Which ever one it is will continue on to other pole transformers as single wire when it leaves the group of houses served by your transformer.
Also on your pole there should be a wire coming from that neutral to a ground rod at the pole.
It you were to make ground voltage measurements at points from your meter to the pole you should see an increase in voltage resulting from the voltage drop from your neutral current. That portions that flows thru the ground.
.
bill:
The wire at the top of the pole is the hot line of the Y primary supply. The three insulators on the side of the can are the 120-0-120 secondary.
The three wires horizontally to the left probably go to your house because of the angle of the photo. The center of the three is the neutral and mechanically terminates on the pole.
There are three moderately heavy insulated wires that go from pole to pole. One is neutral and will be common to both your low voltage neutral and the primary high voltage neutral. I can not see which one from the photo. Which ever one it is will continue on to other pole transformers as single wire when it leaves the group of houses served by your transformer.
Also on your pole there should be a wire coming from that neutral to a ground rod at the pole.
It you were to make ground voltage measurements at points from your meter to the pole you should see an increase in voltage resulting from the voltage drop from your neutral current. That portions that flows thru the ground.
.
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
Why are you comparing two different points in time? I know that your clocks are not sync'd but one point is before the major event and the other is after it.ptonsparky said:
I may see what your refering to about in your other point. The 43B plot is thick, showing min/max swing, lighter blue with a darker line or what appears to be average which compares to your PC plot, correct? It may just do that for some reason!
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Almost impossible to compare these two records with time stamps & scales different. Gar is correct we need to have this set for a 4 minute recording. That is the only way easily compare them.
Sample of the Data:
Sample of the Data:
Title "
Record 1"
Title "
Vrms (ac+dc)"
ID "
1
ID "
1
Type "
MinAvgMax"
Type "
Waveform"
Date "
08/14/08
Date "
08/13/08
Time "
6:52:01 PM
Time "
6:52:13 PM
X Scale "
30
X Scale "
30
X At 0% "
219
X At 0% "
210
X Resolution "
15
X Resolution "
30
X Size "
240
X Size "
506
X Unit "
s"
X Unit "
s"
X Label "
30 s/Div"
X Label "
30 s/Div"
Y Scale "
0.05
Y Scale "
0.05
Y At 50% "
0.075
Y At 50% "
0.1
Y Resolution "
50
Y Resolution "
50
Y Size "
65536
Y Size "
256
Y Unit "
V"
Y Unit "
V"
Y Label "
mV"
Y Label "
mV"
0
0.149
0.149
0.149
0
0.15
2
0.148
0.151
0.153
1
0.15
4
0.146
0.15
0.155
2
0.15
6
0.147
0.15
0.155
3
0.15
8
0.146
0.15
0.157
4
0.151
10
0.15
0.151
0.157
5
0.15
12
0.135
0.149
0.156
6
0.152
14
0.133
0.135
0.139
7
0.15
16
0.133
0.138
0.147
8
0.152
18
0.131
0.138
0.14
9
0.146
20
0.134
0.138
0.144
10
0.136
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Good gosh, someome get rid of that last post for me. Spreedsheet data did post well at all.
Gar is correct the time has to be set for 4 minutes to easily compare Record 1 with Vrms. Record 1 recorded every two seconds for a max of 240 points. Vrms recorded every second until manually stopped. 506 in this case. Add the difference in when Vrms was started...well I think you all know this was a lesson in futility.
Gar is correct the time has to be set for 4 minutes to easily compare Record 1 with Vrms. Record 1 recorded every two seconds for a max of 240 points. Vrms recorded every second until manually stopped. 506 in this case. Add the difference in when Vrms was started...well I think you all know this was a lesson in futility.
wptski
Senior Member
- Location
- Warren, MI
ptonsparky:
I get part of what your saying now! I could post a couple of graphs that would show it clearer than your PDF in Post #29. If one looks at the two data blocks, the top one has three values for the cursor position but the other has only one because it only shows the average value.
The graph I posted in Post #55 "didn't" show just a average! The test I just ran "did"!
I think that I figured out why. If the minimum reading for the whole graph is zero as yours and the test I ran today, it will only show average reading, otherwise, it will show the max, average and min.
I get part of what your saying now! I could post a couple of graphs that would show it clearer than your PDF in Post #29. If one looks at the two data blocks, the top one has three values for the cursor position but the other has only one because it only shows the average value.
The graph I posted in Post #55 "didn't" show just a average! The test I just ran "did"!
I think that I figured out why. If the minimum reading for the whole graph is zero as yours and the test I ran today, it will only show average reading, otherwise, it will show the max, average and min.
- Status