same bored hole, here we go again

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electrofelon

electrofelon

Senior Member
Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrician
I was on a job a few days ago and both another electrician and an alarm guy told me that alarm wires/communications/coax cannot be run in the same bored hole as NM. The alarm guy even told me two inches of separation is required, and he specifically said it was in the NEC and not local. From what I understand now this is an urban legend. My questions are as follows:

1. Is there anything in the NEC that could be interpreted as requiring this, in other words, why does everyone and their brother think this.

2. Has anyone heard of an state or local level code requiring this?
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

My foreman tells me the same thing not the 2" spacing, Ive seen in ductbanks where the seperation has to be 3". But in the dwelling this low voltage wire cant be run through the same hole.
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

800.52 Installation of Communications Wires, Cables, and Equipment.
(A) Separation from Other Conductors.
2) Other Applications. Communications wires and cables shall be separated at least 50 mm (2 in.) from conductors of any electric light, power, Class 1, non?power-limited fire alarm, or medium power network-powered broadband communications circuits.

Exception No. 1: Where either (1) all of the conductors of the electric light, power, Class 1, non?power-limited fire alarm, and medium power network-powered broadband communications circuits are in a raceway or in metal-sheathed, metal-clad, nonmetallic-sheathed, Type AC, or Type UF cables, or (2) all of the conductors of communications circuits are encased in raceway.

"nonmetallic-sheathed"
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

The key word is conductors not cables. There is a requirement for a 2" separation from open conductors not cables. They are permitted in the same hole.
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

Originally posted by infinity:
The key word is conductors not cables. There is a requirement for a 2" separation from open conductors not cables. They are permitted in the same hole.
Click to expand...
Exactly what I would have responded.
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

where would you run open conductors. My mind cant grasp loose conductors being run anywheres. However as I say this I remember a friend of mine telling me thad some hack diy actually did just that at his church. Just glad I never had to see that. Good ol hcane Ivan took care of those electrical hazards
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

This was a detached garage that I insepcted (DIY'er)

IM000396.JPG
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Did it pass? :D Ya know what I thought was really funny though? He had a bond bushing in the panel. I'm not exactly sure what he was bonding, but...

If I remember right, he had the nuetral and ground bonded together as well, so the nuetral current would be on teh bare conductor, in direct contact with the wood! :eek:
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Re: same bored hole, here we go again

Ryan how did you convince the homeowner to let you take a picture of this outstanding craftmanship with a straight face?
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

In recreational vehicles, low voltage and 120V wiring are required to be seperated by at least 1/2", except where they cross at right angles. This used to be part of Article 551 of the NEC, but is now in the RVIA Standard For Low-Voltage Systems.
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

Wouldn't this fall under knob & tube wiring? (He forgot the knobs and tubes) :D :D :D :D :D :D

Looks like the DIYer pulled those nice wires out of a perfectly good piece of SER!
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

Ryan, I cant get the inside panel picture to blow up enough to see if he at least ran the black conductor to the neutral bus on the inside panel as well. Did he?. Or was this a "kaboom" just waiting to let all the smoke out?
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

The guy stripped it out because he didn't have a drill bit big enough for the cable, but he had one big enough for the individual conductors. Strip the cable, problem solved.

It is hard to idiot proof something because the idiots are so ingenious. :D
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

This was a couple years ago, so I don't remember all of the details. I always start my inspections on the outside, so I remember writing up that the black and white were misplaced. I think the GEC was in a metalraceway as well, although I don't recall for sure. I then walked into the building and just started laughing! Luckily the homeowner wasn't there. I think the black and white were wrong inside as well, so it wouldn't have blown up. The ground and nuetral were bonded inside, and the bond bushing I already told you guys about :confused: The only thing I can figure is that for some reason he thought the gray part of the SER was like part of the packaging or something! Although as an inspector I get to see some pretty funny stuff, I'll never forget this one!
 
Re: same bored hole, here we go again

Trevor, I disagree.
The key word is conductors not cables. There is a requirement for a 2" separation from open conductors not cables. They are permitted in the same hole.
Click to expand...
This must be one of those "wifes tales".
Look up the definition of "conductor as used in the NEC. Also look at article 310.4. Here is an excerpt:
Where run in separate raceways or cables, the raceways or cables shall have the same physical characteristics. Where conductors are in separate raceways or cables, the same number of conductors shall be used in each raceway or cable.
Click to expand...
As you can see, the article 800.52 referenced by david is correct. This means that NM cable does qualify.

[ February 19, 2006, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: websparky ]
 
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