Same load has different power factor when fed from different sources

A

acolella

Member
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Engineering Technician
I have some ECM fan motors that are running different power factors when fed from different sources. The motors are 230V single phase motors. The first source that they were fed from is a 600V/240V single phase step down transformer. When fed from this transformer I got the following measurements:

233.7 VAC
4.0 amps
653 watts
0.702 power factor
934 VA
-660 VAR
D 45.2° phase angle
6.06% THD voltage
94.3% THD current

The second source that they were fed from is a 480V delta primary 230V wye secondary three phase transformer. That isn't a typo either. This transformer has a 230V wye secondary. The exact same motors were tested and the exact same power analyzer was used to obtain the measurements. When fed from this transformer I got the following measurements:

236 VAC
5.5 amps
663 watts
0.51 power factor
1.296 kVA
-1.117 kVAR
D 59.2° phase angle
1.63% THD voltage
165% THD current

Has anybody ever seen this before? Why would the motors run a lower power factor/draw higher current at essentially the same voltage and power when connected to the three phase transformer?
 
Have you looked at the sine wave with an oscilloscope? Are there any harmonics on the 230 WYE trans that aren't on the other? What else is on each transformer? Do you have a lot of drives with 6 pulse front ends or some other rectification going on?
 
Those ECM motors likely have diode rectifiers on their inputs and draw current only near the peaks of the voltage waveform. That leads to the very high THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) on the measured current in both cases. Also, the harmonic content will be sensitive to shape of the voltage waveform near the voltage peaks.
 
I'm just speculating, but if the higher 6% voltage THD in the first case is due to flattened peaks in the voltage waveform, that could conceivably result in having a lower current THD than in the second case that has a lower 1.6% voltage THD. That would be because the flattened peaks allow longer diode conduction times allowing less peak current. As suggested above, only scope measurements of the waveforms could isolate the real differences.
 
acolella said:
Why would the motors run a lower power factor/draw higher current at essentially the same voltage and power when connected to the three phase transformer?
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You have demonstrated the textbook case of harmonic current generation in WYE transformers.

The NEC specifically makes allowances for harmonics in WYE transformers, increasing current on the neutral.

210.4(A) informational note
220.61(C)
310.15(E)
 
Is the 3 phase transformer balanced? Lightly loaded? Other phase to neutral type loads? Do you have a nameplate photo of the 480/230V transformer?

Are you measuring PF at the load or at the source of the load?

Does the power factor get better as you get further away from the load? Or does it stay the close to the same or worse? Like closer to the the transformer's secondary.
 
acolella said:
Why would the motors run a lower power factor/draw higher current at essentially the same voltage and power when connected to the three phase transformer?
Click to expand...
The ECM is a power conversion device, like a VFD or UPS. If you are measuring the PF on the line side, you are measuring both the displacement power factor AND the distortion power factor of the power converter, not the motor itself. The displacement PF is only about .95, but the distortion can be a lot higher, depending GREATLY on the line source parameters (%Z, XR, XL etc.). So yes, two different sources will give you two different values, guaranteed. It has nothing to do with the motor performance though.

MOTOR power factor is only the displacement power factor, but on an ECM, you cannot measure that (unless you tore apart the ECM power module).
 
Elect117 said:
Is the 3 phase transformer balanced? Lightly loaded? Other phase to neutral type loads? Do you have a nameplate photo of the 480/230V transformer?

Are you measuring PF at the load or at the source of the load?

Does the power factor get better as you get further away from the load? Or does it stay the close to the same or worse? Like closer to the the transformer's secondary.
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The three phase transformer has right next to no load on it. It is a 150 kVA unit and I only had the motors being tested powered from it. I had the power analyzer connected at the load. I don’t have a practical way of measuring further away from the load at the transformer.
 
Jraef said:
The ECM is a power conversion device, like a VFD or UPS. If you are measuring the PF on the line side, you are measuring both the displacement power factor AND the distortion power factor of the power converter, not the motor itself. The displacement PF is only about .95, but the distortion can be a lot higher, depending GREATLY on the line source parameters (%Z, XR, XL etc.). So yes, two different sources will give you two different values, guaranteed. It has nothing to do with the motor performance though.

MOTOR power factor is only the displacement power factor, but on an ECM, you cannot measure that (unless you tore apart the ECM power module).
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Yes, I was measuring the line input to the motors. I was using the word motors in a general sense. It’s funny you mention that because we actually have taken apart ECM motors and measured the power between the module and the actual motor itself. Thanks for the reply. I never thought to consider the source impedance or reactance. The 480/230 transformer is a 150 kVA unit and the 600/240 transformer is a 1 kVA unit so, yeah, quite a difference. I’m not sure what the %Z is of the two units but I can find out. This makes perfect sense though and is just not something that I have ran across yet.
 
Joethemechanic said:
Have you looked at the sine wave with an oscilloscope? Are there any harmonics on the 230 WYE trans that aren't on the other? What else is on each transformer? Do you have a lot of drives with 6 pulse front ends or some other rectification going on?
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We are planning on putting a scope on it or a fancier power analyzer that will show us the waveforms. Nothing else is on each transformer. We do have probably in the hundreds of 6 pulse drives but nothing else on these particular transformers.
 
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As already said, use a scope and your questions will be answered.

The 2nd case with a delta primary 'shrts out' triplett harminics. Draw your waveforms and you will see that tripplet harmonics in a delta primary are ALL IN PHASE, hence are short circuited. This moves the source voltage and phase, causing you different readings.

As to "is this a concern?" Also note that the shorted harmonics also tend to overheat the primaries suck that delta wye subject to large harmonics need to be rated for those losses.
 
It can be a concern depending on how bad this problem is and how widespread it is in your facility. Harmonics you create in your facility can even travel beyond the POCC (Point Of Common Coupling) and affect the POCO and other utility customers and when that happens it costs a bit of money

With lots of six pulse drives you are going to find predominantly 5th and 7th harmonics
 
junkhound said:
As to "is this a concern?" Also note that the shorted harmonics also tend to overheat the primaries suck that delta wye subject to large harmonics need to be rated for those losses.
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Theoretically, maybe.
In the real world I have never seen a typical transformer installation experience this heating, because very few transformers have enough neutral harmonic loading. Government money projects seem to be the only ones that specify 200% neutrals in panels and K-rated transformers.
 
Joethemechanic said:
It's a small motor, but is it a sign of a larger facility wide issue?
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Not without additional information and data.

I got called in once because a company's power quality monitor was going into alarm due to high harmonics. As I reviewed the waveforms the harmonic content, THDv was excessively high but the THDi was not a problem. I noticed the alarms triggered only on weekends.
I told the customer not to worry.

It turns out the facility was not in production on the weekend and the harmonic content of their new emergency exit light chargers were extremely noisy when their 15A was the only load on a 2000kVA transformer.
 
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