Same raceway or not?

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pete m.

pete m.

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Can the conductors of a credit card reader at a gasoline dispenser be ran in the same conduit that brings the power wiring to the dispenser?

Secondly would 725.55 apply to the credit card reader conductors or would these conductors be covered in chapter 8?

Thanks, Pete
 
pete m. said:
Can the conductors of a credit card reader at a gasoline dispenser be ran in the same conduit that brings the power wiring to the dispenser?

Secondly would 725.55 apply to the credit card reader conductors or would these conductors be covered in chapter 8?

Thanks, Pete
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Yes but it must have the same insulation level if you only apply this answer.

Perhaps, but (H) let you have a way out. (That would also protect you from switching intereference from the power wiring IF pproperly grounded.)
 
I understand 300.3(c)(1) would allow it if the insulation had the same rating.

If 725.55, which modifys the requirement of 300.3(c)(1), does not apply this will work.

I'm actually trying to find some relief for a contractor who is using existing raceways on a "redo" of the dispensing islands.

So, I guess, the real question is will 725 apply to the credit card reader wiring?

Thanks, Pete
 
Even with the same insulation level a limited energy circuit, IE Art 725 Class II, or Art 800 circuit can not be run in the same raceway.
Heres why:
Read section 90.3
Read section 300.3(C)(1), including the FPN.

I am going to make a code proposal to put the FPN in red. Most miss this.
 
725.55 applies. The insulation rating is not the only relevant thing here. If you are using THHN for the limited energy circuit that is nifty, but the entire circuit must be wired as a class 1 circuit, meaning no open splices, all terminations in boxes, a complete system of conduit or other chapter three method, etc.
 
pete m. said:
Can the conductors of a credit card reader at a gasoline dispenser be ran in the same conduit that brings the power wiring to the dispenser?...
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pete -
Speaking from experience of installing several service stations, I would really recommend reading the equipment mfg installation specs. And, I would really recommend following them.

Generally, that is the best method I know of to get the equipment to work as designed.

carl
 
tom baker said:
Even with the same insulation level a limited energy circuit, IE Art 725 Class II, or Art 800 circuit can not be run in the same raceway.
Heres why:
Read section 90.3
Read section 300.3(C)(1), including the FPN.

I am going to make a code proposal to put the FPN in red. Most miss this.
Click to expand...

So who said it is wired as a limited energy circuit?

Even if it is a limited energy circuit, it does not fall under 725 as the reader is an "integral part" of the machine, thus not within the scope of 725.
 
weressl said:
Even if it is a limited energy circuit, it does not fall under 725 as the reader is an "integral part" of the machine, thus not within the scope of 725.
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It is not an integral part of the equipment, the question revolves around the raceway going to the dispenser.

The NEC applies.
 
weressl said:
Don't think so.
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I know you don't, that is why I pointed out your mistake. :wink:

The dispenser and the card reader are within the same unit and that is WHY the question of single conduit came up in the first place.
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Time to for you to re-read the thread, or show me where we learned that tidbit.

It sounds to me there is a raceway from the building to the gas dispenser supplying line voltage to the dispenser and the question is can they run the card reader communication wiring in the line volt raceway.
 
iwire said:
I know you don't, that is why I pointed out your mistake. :wink:

Time to for you to re-read the thread, or show me where we learned that tidbit.

It sounds to me there is a raceway from the building to the gas dispenser supplying line voltage to the dispenser and the question is can they run the card reader communication wiring in the line volt raceway.
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Whenever you point there are three fingers pointing back at you.:cool:

Are the dispenser and the card reader are in the same unit? Normally they are.

Do you pump your own gas or just toot for the greasemonkey?:roll:
 
weressl said:
Whenever you point there are three fingers pointing back at you.:cool:

Are the dispenser and the card reader are in the same unit? Normally they are.

Do you pump your own gas or just toot for the greasemonkey?:roll:
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If you're trying to say it's ok to install a communications cable in the same conduit with the power wiring to the dispenser:

1) You're wrong - Read NEC 800.133(A)(1)(c)
and
2) You're arrogant - Read Proverbs 16:18:smile:
 
weressl said:
Are the dispenser and the card reader are in the same unit? Normally they are.
Click to expand...

Yes they are.

Do you pump your own gas or just toot
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Both.....and that changes the fact that the communication must remain separated from the line volt how?



Have you ever seen what happens to a LAN when line voltage conductors fault, melt and make contact with the communication wiring?

I have and it's very damaging to equipment.

I saw it happen in a factory built unit where both line volt and network communications in the same tight raceway.

The NEC did not apply to that particular piece of equipment but good design practices should have.

I suggest that if you stop and think about it you know it is bad design to run these different systems together.
 
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iwire said:
Yes they are.

Both.....and that changes the fact that the communication must remain separated from the line volt how?

Have you ever seen what happens to a LAN when line voltage conductors fault, melt and make contact with the communication wiring?

I have and it's very damaging to equipment.

I saw it happen in a factory built unit where both line volt and network communications in the same tight raceway.

The NEC did not apply to that particular piece of equipment but good design practices should have.

I suggest that if you stop and think about it you know it is bad design to run these different systems together.
Click to expand...

All installations are perfect until the power is turned on.

I have been designing, commissioning and troubleshooting such systems for the past 40 years.

Paranoia comes from lack of knowledge. I used to prescribe to the rigourous separation of power and signal cabling, but I am not so stuck on it any longer and it is based on lengthy and mass amount of experience. My experience says that properly shielded and grounded cables will be protected from interference. Digital communication itself has advanced to be highly resistant to data interference and validation. I would still separate two types of power wiring; UPS/ASD and Solid State Soft Start.

I would of course limit the length to 75m/250' or less.

Eventually the signal will be carried on the power conductors or wireless.

The Code permits it and the installation can be performed without resulting operational or safety problems.
 
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Just an update... After looking more closely for solutions, the contractor in this instance will be able to combine the credit card reader wiring with the intercom wiring in a common raceway. This will require a bit of re-work inside the building, but I think it beats cutting a new trench to the building and installing a separate conduit.

For what it's worth.... According to this contractor I am the only inspector in the state of Ohio that has a problem with what was originally proposed. After that statement, I called just about every other inspector I know and also posted the question here. I was told by a much more seasoned inspector when I started "Look for the ways to approve a job, not the ways to fail it." I took this as sage advice and do my best to do so every day.

Pete
 
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