Searching the Code

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Re: Searching the Code

Yes,

The reason I said "I suspect, though we will see it miss this round in NEC", is because I've reviewed the pending docs, posted on-line, when trying to find out initially if NEC was mandating this code change, and I found nothing there to suggest it will come up in the May session.

I realize it still could be introduced "ad-hoc" but don't expect that, unless you know something I don't.

The reason I said "For now you will probably get past inspectors, but not attorneys, if there is a law suit." is because regardless of current NEC a sharp attorney suing for damages will hammer you with all the standards, not just NEC. Have you ever been party to a suit, where you and the GC had you validate you've done everything right?

I thankfully haven't had the pleasure either, but have had it happen to friends, that's close enough.

Oh! by the way here is what I got from BICSI:

****************

The Commercial Building Standard for Telecommunications Pathways and Spaces, in Clause 7.2.4.1 states,

"7.2.4 Provisioning

7.2.4.1 A minimum of two walls should be covered with rigidly fixed 20 mm (3/4 in) A-C
plywood, preferably void free, 2440 mm (8 ft) high, capable of supporting attached
equipment. Plywood should be either fire-rated or covered with two coats of fire
retardant paint"

Regards,

Richard E. Dunfee RCDD/OSP Specialist
BICSI Training Program Manager

****************

I have not gotten anything on section 7.9 yet and am waiting on that. I need section 7.9 for a spec I am writing, but this is where I got the eye opener about two walls.
 
Re: Searching the Code

Oldmanriver, what makes you think the ratings of walls, rooms, suites, areas of refuge, etc... is an NEC issue now or ever?

These are building code issues and will remain so.

When an assembly is spelled out or called for in the construction documents, it must be maintained by the wording of some NEC articles such as 300, and the 700 and 800 chapters, but this wording is not designing a rated room or wall or mandating where they will be installed in any fashion.

If you would like to know more, you can research the UL orange books for the assembly or wall type you may be after, you can start here.

Prefixes to rated assemblies
A Floor-Ceiling Designs-Concrete with Cellular Steel Floor Units and Beam Support

Example; A815

D Floor-Ceiling Designs-Concrete with Steel Floor Units and Beam Support

Example; D218

G Floor-Ceiling Designs-Concrete and Steel Joists

Example; G264

J or K Floor-Ceiling Designs-Precast and Field Poured Concrete

Example; J714

L Floor-Ceiling Designs- Wood or Combinatio Wood and Steel Joists

Example; L211

N Beam Designs-for Floor-Ceiling Assemblies

Example; N603

P Roof-Ceiling Designs

Example; P244

S Beam-Designs-for Roof=Ceiling Designs

Example; S723

U or V Wall and Partition Designs

Example; U501

X or Y Column Designs

Example; X522

These assembly types play a big part in how we address Fire Proofing.

If you know the assembly design number you can find it here. http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/gfilenbr.html For a trial, punch in any of the design numbers posted above.

Roger

[ March 19, 2004, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: Searching the Code

...Oh! by the way here is what I got from BICSI

BICSI standards carry no legal or regulatory weight. They are just recommendations that may be used at the descretion of architects, engineers and others in drafting construction specifications.

The real impetus of BICSI is on the telecom industry itself by providing a set of standards that should, but again, don't have to be followed. I don't believe any of these standards have found their way into the NEC thusfar so I seriously doubt that this issue will.

-Hal
 
Re: Searching the Code

Found a list of all applicable specs on this:

ANSI/IEEE C2-1997, National Electrical Safety Code
ANSI/NFPA 70-1999, National Electrical Code
ANSI/TIA/EIA-568-B.1, Commercial Bldg. Telecom. Cabling Standard
ANSI/TIA/EIA-569-A, Commercial Building Standard for Telecommunications Pathways and Spaces
ANSI/TIA/EIA-570-A-1999, Residential Telecommunications Cabling Standard
ANSI/TIA/EIA-606-1993, Administration Standard for the Telecommunications Infrastructure of
Commercial Buildings
ANSI/TIA/EIA-758-1999, Customer-owned Outside Plant Telecommunications Cabling Standard
BICSI Telecommunications Distribution Methods Manual
BICSI Cabling Installation Manual
BICSI Customer-owned Outside Plant Methods Manual
FCC 47 CFR 68

I'm looking to see if they all say the same thing, or at least something similar.

OMR
 
Re: Searching the Code

Roger,

Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't section 800 get put in due to BICSI and ANSI activities? Also the new 2002 requirement to "Remove all abandoned cables" comes over from the BICSI and ANSI standards.

I stated earlier that I do install Telecom, and my search was to see whether NEC was pushing this or not.

It appears not, so anything else posted on this thread is just FYI for those interested. Since several have answered back about being interested, I'm supplying what I find. Hope you don't mind?

OMR
 
Re: Searching the Code

OMR, How do BICSI specs fit into the NEC?

90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance will result in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.
Click to expand...
I am now going to take a guess that the requirement to remove old cable had little to do with BICSI and much more to due with smoke production in a fire. ;)
 
Re: Searching the Code

I realize it still could be introduced "ad-hoc"
Click to expand...
The NEC deadline for any proposals is in the first part of November of the year of the previous edition. Therefore the deadline for the 2005 proposals was November 1, 2002. The deadline for proposals to the 2008 NEC will be November 2005.

If a proposal has not been submitted in time for the CMP to act on it, the proposal will not be accepted. It is required to publish the panel actions so the public has a period of time to review it and submit comments.

If this has not been done, the Code can not be changed. Therefore, a proposal can not be made to the Code from the floor of the NFPA annual meeting in May. :D
 
Re: Searching the Code

OMR

What do you think of Charlie's comments on the deadlines?

Charlie is the man when it comes to code making issues. ;) :cool:

A couple of us have mentioned that the BICSI specifications have to do with performance, and the NEC rules have to do with safety.

You have not even remotely tried to answer why performance specifications should be include in a safety code.

I again point out the NECs stated purpose.

2002 NEC ARTICLE 90
90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance will result in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.
Click to expand...
Please read the above code and then tell us where BICSI standards would fit in.

Bob
 
Re: Searching the Code

The 99 NEC had a FPN to BICSI:
800-6. Mechanical Execution of Work
Communications circuits and equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner. Cables shall be supported by the building structure in such a manner that the cable will not be damaged by normal building use.
FPN: One way to determine accepted industry practice is to refer to nationally recognized standards such as Commercial Building Telecommunications Cabling Standard, ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-A-1995; Commercial Building Standard for Telecommunications Pathways and Spaces, ANSI/TIA/EIA 569-A-1997; and Residential and Light Commercial Telecommunications Wiring Standard, ANSI/EIA/TIA 570-1991, or other ANSI-approved installation standards.

This FPN was removed for the 2002 version.
 
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