Section 210.8(F) of the 2020 NEC

[Bill Snyder]

From Mike Holt:

It's ok for CMP-2 to admit they were wrong and back off now CMP-17 and CMP-7 obviously don't agree or they would have added 210.8(F) to the language in 422 and 440.3 be glad that the local AHJ sees this short sight by CMP-2 and is not enforcing the use of a class A device due to one tragic death with no EGC and no protection from physical damage.

 

[Bill Snyder]

By definition, between any piece of utilization equipment and the building wiring, there is an "outlet."

Cheers, Wayne

So that doesn't mean 210.8(F) applies

 

[Bill Snyder]

By definition, between any piece of utilization equipment and the building wiring, there is an "outlet."

Cheers, Wayne

Just because the outlet exists does not mean hardwired utilization equipment is covered by the language of 210.8(F) see 440.3 and 422.2

 

[wwhitney]

Just because the outlet exists does not mean hardwired utilization equipment is covered by the language of 210.8(F)

That is, in fact, what "all outdoor outlets for dwelling units" means, it includes hardwired utilization equipment.

see 440.3 and 422.2

Those are just point out other sections you need to be aware of, they do not in any way limit the applicability of 210.8(F) or any other section of Chapters 1 through 4. Per 90.3 Code Arrangement: "Chapters 1, 2, 3 and 4 apply generally."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[kwired]

If that was true the cord termination of a dryer would require GFCI protection in a laundry area and it does not. Only the receptacle outlet requires GFCI protection.

The section is worded differently. If you happen to put the dryer outside it would require GFCI protection whether cord connected or hardwired via (F).

Well in one situation the "outlet" requires protection and in the other the receptacle outlet does. Either case the rest of the appliance is downstream of the location requiring protection

 

[mtnelect]

Exception No. 2: Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall not be required for listed
HVAC equipment. This exception shall expire September 1, 2026.

 

[Bill Snyder]

The section is worded differently. If you happen to put the dryer outside it would require GFCI protection whether cord connected or hardwired via (F).

Well in one situation the "outlet" requires protection and in the other the receptacle outlet does. Either case the rest of the appliance is downstream of the location requiring protection

 

[kwired]

Just because the outlet exists does not mean hardwired utilization equipment is covered by the language of 210.8(F) see 440.3 and 422.2

What does 422(presuming you meant).3 and 440.3 have to do with anything here?

210.8(F) requires GFCI protection (as was originally written whether that was a wise change or not) for all outdoor outlets at dwellings other than what was specifically mentioned. If you have a load to power you have an outlet associated with that load somewhere. There is nothing in either those articles that would eliminate needing to comply with anything in 210.8.

I do agree this probably was a bad move on the CMP. based on reports the AC units were the primary target that caused this change. Now with the TIA, they apparently realized at very least they jumped the gun on this.

 

[Bill Snyder]

The section is worded differently. If you happen to put the dryer outside it would require GFCI protection whether cord connected or hardwired via (F).

Well in one situation the "outlet" requires protection and in the other the receptacle outlet does. Either case the rest of the appliance is downstream of the location requiring protection

The State of Colorado disagrees with that interpretation hardwired utilization equipment is covered by 210.8(D) which covers all outlets.

 

[Bill Snyder]

What does 422(presuming you meant).3 and 440.3 have to do with anything here?

210.8(F) requires GFCI protection (as was originally written whether that was a wise change or not) for all outdoor outlets at dwellings other than what was specifically mentioned. If you have a load to power you have an outlet associated with that load somewhere. There is nothing in either those articles that would eliminate needing to comply with anything in 210.8.

I do agree this probably was a bad move on the CMP. based on reports the AC units were the primary target that caused this change. Now with the TIA, they apparently realized at very least they jumped the gun on this.

I 100% agree now they want to kick a TIA down the road until 2026 instead of adding HVAC equipment to 210.8(D) which now covers all outlets unless specifically listed in (D) now 210.8(F) officially became a boat anchor code that means nothing.

 

[kwired]

The State of Colorado disagrees with that interpretation hardwired utilization equipment is covered by 210.8(D) which covers all outlets.

210.8(D) does nothing but refer you to 422.5 where specific appliances are covered by that section.

A typical AC condensing unit "with hermetic refrigerant compressor" is an art 440 application and not a 422 application.

That said anything not required to have GFCI protection via any place else still must have it's "outlet" protected via 210.8(F) if it is outdoors at a dwelling unit (per original wording before they added the TIA) so if you don't want to consider it a 440 application for whatever reason, 210.8(F) still requires GFCI protection of the "outlet" regardless what you want to call the unit.

 

[mtnelect]

210.8(D) does nothing but refer you to 422.5 where specific appliances are covered by that section.

A typical AC condensing unit "with hermetic refrigerant compressor" is an art 440 application and not a 422 application.

That said anything not required to have GFCI protection via any place else still must have it's "outlet" protected via 210.8(F) if it is outdoors at a dwelling unit (per original wording before they added the TIA) so if you don't want to consider it a 440 application for whatever reason, 210.8(F) still requires GFCI protection of the "outlet" regardless what you want to call the unit.

TIA Log No. 1653 refers to the dedicated circuit for electronically controlled HVAC units. Section 210.63 is for Heating-Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet. This outlet is used for servicing and maintenance of units and does not require GFCI protection.

 

[texie]

Exception No. 2: Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall not be required for listed
HVAC equipment. This exception shall expire September 1, 2026.

Just for clarification, this is a proposed TIA and has not been issued.

 

[wwhitney]

The State of Colorado disagrees with that interpretation hardwired utilization equipment is covered by 210.8(D) which covers all outlets.

If that's correct, and there are no amendments, the State of Colorado is mistaken, the definitions are clear.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

Section 210.63 is for Heating-Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet. This outlet is used for servicing and maintenance of units and does not require GFCI protection.

210.8(E) says otherwise.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[texie]

TIA Log No. 1653 refers to the dedicated circuit for electronically controlled HVAC units. Section 210.63 is for Heating-Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet. This outlet is used for servicing and maintenance of units and does not require GFCI protection.

Where do you get the idea that outdoor receps required by 210.63 are not required to be GFCI?

 

[texie]

I 100% agree now they want to kick a TIA down the road until 2026 instead of adding HVAC equipment to 210.8(D) which now covers all outlets unless specifically listed in (D) now 210.8(F) officially became a boat anchor code that means nothing.

I'm trying to understand your position on this subject. Are you saying that a residential outdoor condensing unit does not require GFCI protection under the 2020 NEC? And the state of Colorado also sees it this way? If so, that is simply incorrect on both counts.

 

[retirede]

I'm trying to understand your position on this subject.

His position is that he resurrected a year old thread to start a debate, and despite being given the correct position multiple times by multiple people, he just keeps repeating himself.

If I were a moderator, I’d lock it.

 

[mtnelect]

Where do you get the idea that outdoor receps required by 210.63 are not required to be GFCI?

Yes, you are correct GFCI are required on rooftops ! ...

 

[tom baker]

The correct answer is the graphic by Mike Holt posted earlier.