Sensors wired fire alarm control panel fed from AC panelboard

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hhsting

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I have residential home converted to assisted living for 10 people. It has basement and first floor. First floor has kitchen bedrooms, living room and basement has bedrooms.

The designer is placing fire alarm control panel. He is wiring carbon monoxide sensors, smoke detectors to fire alarm control panel.

However power to the sensors are shared with light circuits branch breaker. So he is extending light circuit fed from branch circuit breaker AC panelboard to the sensors.


Questions:

1. Should the carbon monoxide sensors, smoke detector sensors be dedicated circuits fed from dedicated branch circuit breaker in AC panelboard per NEC 2014 Section 760 or can they be shared with light circuits and light branch breaker in AC panelboard?

2. Am I correct to say if shared is allowed then lights circuits AC panelboard should Not have AFCI however if it’s dedicated to sensors then those dedicated circuits for the sensors in AC panelboards should Not have AFCI?
 
hhsting said:
The designer is placing fire alarm control panel..
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AHJ Permit Planner is most likely trying to comply with recently-adopted codes, since changes in occupancy type was triggered, from R3 residential to R4 assisted living.

Without grandfathering old codes for old buildings, your most current adopted NFPA-7, perhaps 2014, and other separate building & fire code-specific standards must apply.

Therefore, 2014 NFPA 760.41(B) would require a separate Fire Alarm Control Panel, accessible only to qualified personnel, and removal of commingled loads, or complete rewire, with AHJ approval to modify existing-hardwired smokes.
 
ramsy said:
AHJ Permit Planner is most likely trying to comply with recently-adopted codes, since changes in occupancy type was triggered, from R3 residential to R4 assisted living.

Without grandfathering old codes for old buildings, your most current adopted NFPA-7, perhaps 2014, and other separate building & fire code-specific standards must apply.

Therefore, 2014 NFPA 760.41(B) would require a separate Fire Alarm Control Panel, accessible only to qualified personnel, and removal of commingled loads, or complete rewire, with AHJ approval to modify existing-hardwired smokes.
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I have 4 wires smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors. 2 wires go to light circuit for 120V power in AC panelboard and other 2 wires go to fire alarms control panel.

Should not the 2 wires that go to the AC panelboard be dedicated circuit and should Not be part of light circuit?
 
hhsting said:
I have residential home converted to assisted living for 10 people. It has basement and first floor. First floor has kitchen bedrooms, living room and basement has bedrooms.

The designer is placing fire alarm control panel. He is wiring carbon monoxide sensors, smoke detectors to fire alarm control panel.

However power to the sensors are shared with light circuits branch breaker. So he is extending light circuit fed from branch circuit breaker AC panelboard to the sensors.


Questions:

1. Should the carbon monoxide sensors, smoke detector sensors be dedicated circuits fed from dedicated branch circuit breaker in AC panelboard per NEC 2014 Section 760 or can they be shared with light circuits and light branch breaker in AC panelboard?

2. Am I correct to say if shared is allowed then lights circuits AC panelboard should Not have AFCI however if it’s dedicated to sensors then those dedicated circuits for the sensors in AC panelboards should Not have AFCI?
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your inquiry is confusing to me. If the devices are from the FACP, then they're powered from it and it has primary and secondary power . But you're saying they're AC powered. I've never seen AC powered system smoke detectors. Any circuit in a dwelling, especially a bedroom, will need AFCI. Also, if the life safety devices, that you're saying are 120 vac,if they're on dedicated circuit without power monitoring alarm they could be accidentally turned off.
 
ramsy said:
NFPA-70, aka NEC

I believe lights should stay with existing fuse box, while smokes & CO outlets should be moved to new FACP enclosure.
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Where does it say that in code NEC 2014 section 760? What if fire alarm control panel don’t have 120V power? Can smokes be not be powered from dedicated branch breaker in the panelboard that is Not shared by lights?
 
hhsting said:
I have 4 wires smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors. 2 wires go to light circuit for 120V power in AC panelboard and other 2 wires go to fire alarms control panel.

Should not the 2 wires that go to the AC panelboard be dedicated circuit and should Not be part of light circuit?
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this intrigues me. What's the manufacturer of the devices?
 
farmantenna said:
your inquiry is confusing to me. If the devices are from the FACP, then they're powered from it and it has primary and secondary power . But you're saying they're AC powered. I've never seen AC powered system smoke detectors. Any circuit in a dwelling, especially a bedroom, will need AFCI. Also, if the life safety devices, that you're saying are 120 vac,if they're on dedicated circuit without power monitoring alarm they could be accidentally turned off.
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Well smokes are 4 wire, 2 wire require 120V power and so they are hardwired with light circuit whose breaker is in AC panelboard that feed power to the assisted living and the other 2 wire are for data communication of FACP.

Their is exception 210.12( if circuits are installed in accordance with 760.41(B) or 760.121(B) shall AFCI can be omitted.
 
In my State wiring FACP's requires a special California C-16 license, regardless of 760.41(B) requirements shown in the same NEC, typically accomplished by a C-10.
 
ramsy said:
In my State wiring FACP's requires a special California C-16 license, regardless of 760.41(B) requirements shown in the same NEC, typically accomplished by a C-10.
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I meant smoke detectors that are hard wired and connected to FACP any wires go to AC panelboard branch circuit breakers?
 
So many pages in NEC! never read that because I've had this situation. I don't have an answer but
hhsting said:
I don’t have manufacturer datasheet but in your experience how is smoke detectors Not alarms are hardwired to AC panelboard is connected to FACP?
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sorry,your syntax is confusing me. I've never wired 120 vac SDs that were communicating to a FACP. All the systems I've installed have been addressable system devices to a FACP like Silent Knight, Notifier or Firelite or interconnected 120 vac smoke alarms . The FACP had dedicated circuit and other system was from lighting circuit. I don't have answer for you. Do your SDs have secondary power?
 
hhsting said:
What if fire alarm control panel don’t have 120V power
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If planner specified FACP without indicating power limited, the licensed contractor may use NEC 760.41 section to comply with a 120v Non-Power Limited FACP & devices.
 
ramsy said:
If planner specified FACP without indicating power limited, the licensed contractor may use NEC 760.41 section to comply with a 120v Non-Power Limited FACP & devices.
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I meant FACP has 120V fed from AC panelboard but their is no 120V power to feed to smoke detectors from FACP.
 
farmantenna said:
So many pages in NEC! never read that because I've had this situation. I don't have an answer but
sorry,your syntax is confusing me. I've never wired 120 vac SDs that were communicating to a FACP. All the systems I've installed have been addressable system devices to a FACP like Silent Knight, Notifier or Firelite or interconnected 120 vac smoke alarms . The FACP had dedicated circuit and other system was from lighting circuit. I don't have answer for you. Do your SDs have secondary power?
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I don’t have manufacturer datasheet. But these are detectors Not alarms how can detectors have secondary power supply?


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The FACP probably monitors the 120 volt device power, and if power is lost to the device, it will set a trouble code. Kinda weird though, when a 24 vdc system would be exempt from the arc fault requirement, and from the sounds of it, com loop would be require to be installed , so why not a complete system that powers the devices too.
 
NEC 2014 Section 210.12(A) dewelling unit Exception shown below where can this be applied I am confused. Any detectors that are tied to FACP have breakers inside FACP. I guess I don’t know. I am sure below exception is Not talking about FACP

Does this mean there are detectors that supply thru AC panelboard and the FACP and those AC panelboard breaker should not have AFCI? Not sure where this would apply can anyone please help?



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hhsting said:
I meant FACP has 120V fed from AC panelboard but their is no 120V power to feed to smoke detectors from FACP.
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The OP is going from type R3 residential with 120v hardwired outlets in place for existing smoke devices.

The only way a low voltage FACP & devices goes in there, is if some contractor up sells a complete building rewire.
 
hhsting said:
Does this mean there are detectors that supply thru AC panelboard and the FACP..
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Always had to contact the Fire Marshal to verify my R3 device replacements were correct. Lots of confusion between fire code, and old crap being sold on store shelves.

10.yr battery vs old 9v battery, hardwired with backup found without hardwiring, relying on 9v battery backup, etc..

Never attempted to modify existing wiring for smokes & CO., much less commingle 120v & low voltage devices.
 
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