I am hiring an electrician to work on a kitchen remodel in my 1943 home. I am getting differing opinions from them on whether I must have separate 240 lines for the new single wall oven (with convection) and the new glass top 4 burner cook top. I believe both are 30 amp. The cooktop says it runs off a single phase, 3 or 4 wire 240/208 volt 60 hertz with ground. Most estimators have said we must have separate lines, but 2 have said there is a provision (in the code?) that says the line can be split. They justify being able to do this because it is currently serving my freestanding range, which is a 1960's Frigidaire Flair double oven and cook top combo. One of them also said that the 110 for the range's electronic controls is split off of the 240 within the range. I don't know if that will affect being able to split the 240. I want to do the safe thing, but if I don't really need another 240 line, I sure would like to know. Before I choose an electrician, can someone help me out? Our community uses the National Electrical Code 2002 Edition. Thanks!
separate 240 needed for wall oven and cooktop?
- Thread starter Susanna
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: separate 240 needed for wall oven and cooktop?
I hope we can help, but we may need some additional information. Please be patient with us. We don't always agree at the beginning, mostly because the person asking the question might not be familiar with the terminology of this profession. So we might not be answering the question you had intended to ask. You should understand this concern, being a member of another profession that has its own language. But we usually come to some common agreement, once we are sure we know exactly what you are asking.
I would need to know the ratings of the two new cooking units. You said that you believed both were 30 amps. That is likely the manufacturer's suggested circuit rating, but would not tell us how much load the cooking unit would actually draw. Can you find out the ratings, in terms of "watts," or "VA" or "KVA"? It might be on the nameplate. But if the items have not yet been delivered, you might be able to ask the sales representative. Or if you have a make and model number, we could look it up on-line.
I would also need to know the rating of the circuit breaker that serves the existing cooking equipment. You should be able to read a number that is etched into the breaker handle.
I hope we can help, but we may need some additional information. Please be patient with us. We don't always agree at the beginning, mostly because the person asking the question might not be familiar with the terminology of this profession. So we might not be answering the question you had intended to ask. You should understand this concern, being a member of another profession that has its own language. But we usually come to some common agreement, once we are sure we know exactly what you are asking.
I would need to know the ratings of the two new cooking units. You said that you believed both were 30 amps. That is likely the manufacturer's suggested circuit rating, but would not tell us how much load the cooking unit would actually draw. Can you find out the ratings, in terms of "watts," or "VA" or "KVA"? It might be on the nameplate. But if the items have not yet been delivered, you might be able to ask the sales representative. Or if you have a make and model number, we could look it up on-line.
I would also need to know the rating of the circuit breaker that serves the existing cooking equipment. You should be able to read a number that is etched into the breaker handle.
Re: separate 240 needed for wall oven and cooktop?
Thanks so very much for the prompt reply! I totally understand the "language differences" and was very pleased to see you understand that issue as well.
As for the ratings of the 2 units, we called Lowe's and had them look up the amps, that's why I said I "believe" they are both 30 amps. It's a matter of trusting them to have given us the right info. I tried to locate the info on the units, but they are still crated and I can't lift them out. (husband just had eye surgery and he can't lift either). If it isn't too much trouble, I would greatly appreciate it if you could look up on line. The model number on the Frigidaire cooktop is FEC30S6AB. The number on the Frigidaire wall oven is GLEB27S7CB. I did manage to pull out the installation info on the cooktop, but can't see any reference to watts, VA or KVA.
I looked at the breaker box and if I look at it correctly, there are two separate 240 lines going from two separate 40 amp breakers into one conduit that runs along the outside wall of the house to behind my dryer, where they then go into the house through the wall. I haven't looked under the house to be sure, but I am almost certain one of those wires goes to the dryer and the other travels under the floor and comes up through the floor by the range. The receptacle for the range plug is there on the floor. All the other circuit breakers that seem to be in use are 30 amp.
Hope this info helps you to help me!
Thanks again!
Su
Thanks so very much for the prompt reply! I totally understand the "language differences" and was very pleased to see you understand that issue as well.
As for the ratings of the 2 units, we called Lowe's and had them look up the amps, that's why I said I "believe" they are both 30 amps. It's a matter of trusting them to have given us the right info. I tried to locate the info on the units, but they are still crated and I can't lift them out. (husband just had eye surgery and he can't lift either). If it isn't too much trouble, I would greatly appreciate it if you could look up on line. The model number on the Frigidaire cooktop is FEC30S6AB. The number on the Frigidaire wall oven is GLEB27S7CB. I did manage to pull out the installation info on the cooktop, but can't see any reference to watts, VA or KVA.
I looked at the breaker box and if I look at it correctly, there are two separate 240 lines going from two separate 40 amp breakers into one conduit that runs along the outside wall of the house to behind my dryer, where they then go into the house through the wall. I haven't looked under the house to be sure, but I am almost certain one of those wires goes to the dryer and the other travels under the floor and comes up through the floor by the range. The receptacle for the range plug is there on the floor. All the other circuit breakers that seem to be in use are 30 amp.
Hope this info helps you to help me!
Thanks again!
Su
ty
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Rock from the Sun
Re: separate 240 needed for wall oven and cooktop?
30 amps sounds correct for each unit, but you never know for sure without looking at the nameplate. The instructions are always vague on kitchen appliances.
From the Frigidaire Site:
the FEC30S6AB states a 3-wire or 4-wire single phase 120/240 or 120/208 volt, 60 Hz AC only electrical supply is required on a seperate circuit fused on both sides of the line (time-delay fuse or circuit breaker is recommended). DO NOT fuse neutral. The fuse size must not exceed the circuit rating of the appliance specified on the nameplate.
the GLEB27S7CB states a 3-wire or 4-wire single phase 120/240 or 120/208 volt, 60 Hz AC only electrical supply is required on a seperate circuit fused on both sides of the line (time-delay fuse or circuit breaker is recommended). DO NOT fuse neutral. The fuse size must not exceed the circuit rating of the appliance specified on the nameplate. Consideration must be given for a combination built-in oven and cooktop refer to unit serial plate of each.
You would probably need a 30 amp circut for each.
30 amps sounds correct for each unit, but you never know for sure without looking at the nameplate. The instructions are always vague on kitchen appliances.
From the Frigidaire Site:
the FEC30S6AB states a 3-wire or 4-wire single phase 120/240 or 120/208 volt, 60 Hz AC only electrical supply is required on a seperate circuit fused on both sides of the line (time-delay fuse or circuit breaker is recommended). DO NOT fuse neutral. The fuse size must not exceed the circuit rating of the appliance specified on the nameplate.
the GLEB27S7CB states a 3-wire or 4-wire single phase 120/240 or 120/208 volt, 60 Hz AC only electrical supply is required on a seperate circuit fused on both sides of the line (time-delay fuse or circuit breaker is recommended). DO NOT fuse neutral. The fuse size must not exceed the circuit rating of the appliance specified on the nameplate. Consideration must be given for a combination built-in oven and cooktop refer to unit serial plate of each.
You would probably need a 30 amp circut for each.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: separate 240 needed for wall oven and cooktop?
The reason I had hoped to get the load in terms of watts (or VA or KVA) is that the NEC gives us a method of adding up load, and for taking credit for the fact that not everything will be running at the same time. But that method requires us to know how much power each unit will use by itself. For example, if each unit will draw a maximum of 4800 watts (equivalent to 20 amps) at a time, but the manufacturer (being conservative) suggests a 30 amp circuit, we might be able to use a single 40 amp circuit (instead of two 30's) to do the same job. But we would have to know that "4800 watt" number.
If all we can discern is that the manufacturer says to give each unit a 30 amp circuit, then I have to agree with Todd: you need two separate 30 amp circuits for the cooking units, and you can't share one of the circuits with the dryer.
The reason I had hoped to get the load in terms of watts (or VA or KVA) is that the NEC gives us a method of adding up load, and for taking credit for the fact that not everything will be running at the same time. But that method requires us to know how much power each unit will use by itself. For example, if each unit will draw a maximum of 4800 watts (equivalent to 20 amps) at a time, but the manufacturer (being conservative) suggests a 30 amp circuit, we might be able to use a single 40 amp circuit (instead of two 30's) to do the same job. But we would have to know that "4800 watt" number.
If all we can discern is that the manufacturer says to give each unit a 30 amp circuit, then I have to agree with Todd: you need two separate 30 amp circuits for the cooking units, and you can't share one of the circuits with the dryer.
Re: separate 240 needed for wall oven and cooktop?
Thanks so much for your help so far. Your explanation makes sense. I will try to find the watts/VA/KVA on the appliances today.
You mention not sharing the circuit with the dryer. I didn't think we were sharing or ever considering sharing a circuit with the dryer. As far as I can tell there are two separate 240 lines going from two separate 40 amp breakers into one conduit that runs along the outside wall of the house to behind my dryer. Am I assuming incorrectly that one of the wires serves the dryer and the other serves the current range?
Su
Thanks so much for your help so far. Your explanation makes sense. I will try to find the watts/VA/KVA on the appliances today.
You mention not sharing the circuit with the dryer. I didn't think we were sharing or ever considering sharing a circuit with the dryer. As far as I can tell there are two separate 240 lines going from two separate 40 amp breakers into one conduit that runs along the outside wall of the house to behind my dryer. Am I assuming incorrectly that one of the wires serves the dryer and the other serves the current range?
Su
Re: separate 240 needed for wall oven and cooktop?
They are reffering to the tap rule, but IMO it would be easier to just pull two separate romex cables, than setting a j-box and making the splice, its a matter of labor hrs vs material cost and the two RXs vs the tap ( in material cost) would be very little difference.
Re: separate 240 needed for wall oven and cooktop?
Susanna,
Charlie just said that he needs specific info in order to be able to tell you if a tap rule applys. You seem to have a couple contractors who are willing to do this without such info.
Consider carefully who you decide to hire.
IMHO go for the better installation and pay now, so that you are not unhappy and have to pay later.
Susanna,
Charlie just said that he needs specific info in order to be able to tell you if a tap rule applys. You seem to have a couple contractors who are willing to do this without such info.
Consider carefully who you decide to hire.
IMHO go for the better installation and pay now, so that you are not unhappy and have to pay later.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: separate 240 needed for wall oven and cooktop?
[ January 05, 2006, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]
Ty is correct, largely because code requires adhering to manufacturers instructions, as highlighted by italics above.
[ January 05, 2006, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]
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