Separate building outside feeder

[hhsting]

Attached sketch show building with parking, first to fourth floor. The grade is sloped. The building is Not a high rise.

Parking is construction II and first floor to fourth floor is construction III therefore they are both separated by Firewall. Building code department has labeled the parking part and first to fourth floor separate buildings. AHJ here has local amendment that definition of building in the NEC follow Building code department thus we are to treat parking space and first to fourth floors two separate buildings horizontally.

There are two vertical parts: part I and part II buildings but vertically it is Not considered separate buildings as far as I know so we can assume they are Not separate buildings vertically.

The main service switchboard is located on part II first floor and generator, fire pump on part I parking level

From switchboard their is service conductor tapped ahead of service disco in switchboard going to underground part II then come up fire pump main service disco in parking part I.

Also from switchboard I have feeder conductors going underground then come up part I parking and feeding generator ATS-S, ATS-E normal side fused discos standby and emergency

The switchboard also has feeder conductors going underground to come up in part I parking then pass thru and feed Panel LGW 1st floor Part 1, meter stacks MLO part 1 as shown in sketch.


The panel LGW part 1 1st floor has branch circuits which feed the parking which by building department is separate building but they all feed inside buildings don’t go outside.

Questions:

1. The switchboard feeders that go underground from part 2 first floor to part 1 parking are they considered outside feeders NEC 2017 section 225 or not? Your opinion

2. The switchboard feeders that go underground from part 2 first floor to part 1 parking which feed normal side of emergency and standby ATS would they be allowed by NEC 2017 section 225 or not?

3. The switchboard feeder that go underground from part 2 first floor come up part 1 parking and then go to part 1 first floor which then feed Panel LGW should it have disco and grounding electrode system right where they enter part 1 parking or not NEC 2017 sections 225, 250.30?


Sketch:

 

[hhsting]

Attached sketch show building with parking, first to fourth floor. The grade is sloped. The building is Not a high rise.

Parking is construction II and first floor to fourth floor is construction III therefore they are both separated by Firewall. Building code department has labeled the parking part and first to fourth floor separate buildings. AHJ here has local amendment that definition of building in the NEC follow Building code department thus we are to treat parking space and first to fourth floors two separate buildings horizontally.

There are two vertical parts: part I and part II buildings but vertically it is Not considered separate buildings as far as I know so we can assume they are Not separate buildings vertically.

The main service switchboard is located on part II first floor and generator, fire pump on part I parking level

From switchboard their is service conductor tapped ahead of service disco in switchboard going to underground part II then come up fire pump main service disco in parking part I.

Also from switchboard I have feeder conductors going underground then come up part I parking and feeding generator ATS-S, ATS-E normal side fused discos standby and emergency

The switchboard also has feeder conductors going underground to come up in part I parking then pass thru and feed Panel LGW 1st floor Part 1, meter stacks MLO part 1 as shown in sketch.


The panel LGW part 1 1st floor has branch circuits which feed the parking which by building department is separate building but they all feed inside buildings don’t go outside.

Questions:

1. The switchboard feeders that go underground from part 2 first floor to part 1 parking are they considered outside feeders NEC 2017 section 225 or not? Your opinion

2. The switchboard feeders that go underground from part 2 first floor to part 1 parking which feed normal side of emergency and standby ATS would they be allowed by NEC 2017 section 225 or not?

3. The switchboard feeder that go underground from part 2 first floor come up part 1 parking and then go to part 1 first floor which then feed Panel LGW should it have disco and grounding electrode system right where they enter part 1 parking or not NEC 2017 sections 225, 250.30?


Sketch:

Does anyone here know or have any opinions? I need help with this please

 

[augie47]

Looks like we would be doing plans review for free
What % of your paycheck should we expect ?

 

[infinity]

Honestly I looked at the sketch and it hurt my eyes. Someone needs to use a straight edge when drawing straight lines.

 

[hhsting]

Attached is more clear picture

 

[hhsting]

Looks like we would be doing plans review for free
What % of your paycheck should we expect ?

Its not plan review want to know what code says or how experts interpret code. This is not entire plan for sure.

I did appreciate your help

 

[hhsting]

Does anyone here know or have any opinions? please

 

[Fred B]

Attached sketch show building with parking, first to fourth floor. The grade is sloped. The building is Not a high rise.

Questions:

1. The switchboard feeders that go underground from part 2 first floor to part 1 parking are they considered outside feeders NEC 2017 section 225 or not? Your opinion

2. The switchboard feeders that go underground from part 2 first floor to part 1 parking which feed normal side of emergency and standby ATS would they be allowed by NEC 2017 section 225 or not?

3. The switchboard feeder that go underground from part 2 first floor come up part 1 parking and then go to part 1 first floor which then feed Panel LGW should it have disco and grounding electrode system right where they enter part 1 parking or not NEC 2017 sections 225, 250.30?

What do you think?
Reason you think it does or doesn't?
Question specific article sections you're not sure of.
Your thoughts on 225.30 compliance?

 

[hhsting]

Attached sketch show building with parking, first to fourth floor. The grade is sloped. The building is Not a high rise.

Parking is construction II and first floor to fourth floor is construction III therefore they are both separated by Firewall. Building code department has labeled the parking part and first to fourth floor separate buildings. AHJ here has local amendment that definition of building in the NEC follow Building code department thus we are to treat parking space and first to fourth floors two separate buildings horizontally.

There are two vertical parts: part I and part II buildings but vertically it is Not considered separate buildings as far as I know so we can assume they are Not separate buildings vertically.

The main service switchboard is located on part II first floor and generator, fire pump on part I parking level

From switchboard their is service conductor tapped ahead of service disco in switchboard going to underground part II then come up fire pump main service disco in parking part I.

Also from switchboard I have feeder conductors going underground then come up part I parking and feeding generator ATS-S, ATS-E normal side fused discos standby and emergency

The switchboard also has feeder conductors going underground to come up in part I parking then pass thru and feed Panel LGW 1st floor Part 1, meter stacks MLO part 1 as shown in sketch.


The panel LGW part 1 1st floor has branch circuits which feed the parking which by building department is separate building but they all feed inside buildings don’t go outside.

Questions:

1. The switchboard feeders that go underground from part 2 first floor to part 1 parking are they considered outside feeders NEC 2017 section 225 or not? Your opinion

2. The switchboard feeders that go underground from part 2 first floor to part 1 parking which feed normal side of emergency and standby ATS would they be allowed by NEC 2017 section 225 or not?

3. The switchboard feeder that go underground from part 2 first floor come up part 1 parking and then go to part 1 first floor which then feed Panel LGW should it have disco and grounding electrode system right where they enter part 1 parking or not NEC 2017 sections 225, 250.32

What do you think?
Reason you think it does or doesn't?
Question specific article sections you're not sure of.
Your thoughts on 225.30 compliance?

See clear attachment post #5 Well all the building has one owner. Second floor to fourth floor part I and II is mostly residential units. One can go from parking part II to first floor part I.

Question 1: I would say yes outside feeders go from one building to next underground but not sure if 225.30 applies or not.

Question 2: I am not sure again if 225.30 applies or not. The feed is from normal side and their is already one feeders that supplies the parking. Also the panelboards from generator feed parking and rest of the floors part I and II emergency and stand by

Question 3: I am not sure if 225.32 and 250.32 apply or not? LGW feeds part I parking and part I first floor. Would LGW feeder be serving the building or part of the building part I or its just passing thru or not?

Its all confusing to me

 

[hhsting]

What do you think?
Reason you think it does or doesn't?
Question specific article sections you're not sure of.
Your thoughts on 225.30 compliance?

I guess your not gonna tell me what do you think about post#1 questions?

 

[augie47]

Not saying it is the correct thing to do but we have similar structures locally and our AHJ considers it one structure from an electrical standpoint other than requiring fire proofing between sections (buildings) and Art 225 does not come into play.

 

[NTesla76]

Why not just ask your AHJ?

 

[hhsting]

Why not just ask your AHJ?

Cant. Me = AHJ. If your the AHJ who you gonna ask. Nest to get opinion of what most other AHJ do

 

[jim dungar]

Cant. Me = AHJ. If your the AHJ who you gonna ask. Nest to get opinion of what most other AHJ do

If you are the AHJ, I feel you should first be telling us what your position/decision is and then ask for our comments.

We do not need to defend our choices to you, you need to defend yours to your constituents.

 

[Joe.B]

From my limited experience when building codes talk about "separate buildings" they are referring to either fire separations or occupancy classifications. I wouldn't get hung up on those terms when looking at the electrical components. Obviously if electrical penetrates a fire wall then you need a rated assembly, but otherwise think about it as what it really is, one big building. Right?

I'll try to answer your questions, but I'm making a lot of assumptions based on what you've said. Such as you mention underground, but not outside.

1. No, per 225.1
2. Yes, per 225.1
3. The "one" building should have one ground at the service disconnect right?

Many contractors have had very negative experiences with AHJ's and project those experiences onto all AHJ's. "If you're the authority than you should know. Oh, you don't know then what are you doing pretending to be the authority?" My only advice is try to read through the code to get to the intent of the code.

 

[hhsting]

From my limited experience when building codes talk about "separate buildings" they are referring to either fire separations or occupancy classifications. I wouldn't get hung up on those terms when looking at the electrical components. Obviously if electrical penetrates a fire wall then you need a rated assembly, but otherwise think about it as what it really is, one big building. Right?

I'll try to answer your questions, but I'm making a lot of assumptions based on what you've said. Such as you mention underground, but not outside.

1. No, per 225.1
2. Yes, per 225.1
3. The "one" building should have one ground at the service disconnect right?

Many contractors have had very negative experiences with AHJ's and project those experiences onto all AHJ's. "If you're the authority than you should know. Oh, you don't know then what are you doing pretending to be the authority?" My only advice is try to read through the code to get to the intent of the code.

Ahh but how does one tell the intent of the code? Is their any additional good books that does do good job of that or is it in code anywhere?

 

[roger]

Ahh but how does one tell the intent of the code? Is their any additional good books that does do good job of that or is it in code anywhere?

Go to the NFPA site and research the ROP's.

Roger

 

[Joe.B]

Ahh but how does one tell the intent of the code? Is their any additional good books that does do good job of that or is it in code anywhere?

After re-reading my post I realized my deeper meaning was lost. I meant "read through the code" as in seeing through the trees to see the forest. I have found that our resources are limited. These forums are helpful within their limitations. If you haven't already check out "The Building Code Forum." Also has it's limitations, but is helpful in it's way too.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Do the letters "MLO" next to the meter mean "main lugs only". If so where is the overcurrent protection for each of the feeders that originate at the meters.

 

[hhsting]

Do the letters "MLO" next to the meter mean "main lugs only". If so where is the overcurrent protection for each of the feeders that originate at the meters.

Yes MLO = main lugs only. The overcurrent protection would be in the switchgear