Customer with existing UF 3 wire 240v feeder to well house only serving 240 volt loads( well pump and small heater). They need a 120v circuit for a water softener. I am thinking I can add a new panel with service disconnect, add electrodes, re bond that bare equipment ground and use that as a grounded conductor for the 120v loads. Code allows a 3 wire feeder if no metallic path back to the source ( 250.32 B2) which this has a plastic pipe between structures. I don't see a specific requirement for an insulated grounded conductor in this case. What say you all?
Separate structure with existing 3 wire 240v service
- Thread starter yetiman
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jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Current code allows this for existing installations so I would imagine your inspector would allow it.
Since you are only running one piece of equipment the EGC is probably sized big enough to be a grounded conductor.
Since you are only running one piece of equipment the EGC is probably sized big enough to be a grounded conductor.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
I don't think you are supposed to use the bare egc as a neutral even though it's covered by the uf sheathing, it's sheathing not insulation.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
What would be the difference between UF and USE in this application?
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Not a big difference electriicaly but that don't make it legal.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I know you cannot use a bare EGC like NM, for a grounded conductor, unlike SE, to an appliance as allowed in 240.140, but where is it disallowed in this application? An existing UF feeder to a separate building with a GES installed.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Right now the existing installation is 240V only.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Well, gee wilickers Wally, I done knowed that.
What the Beaver wants to know is "Code reference, please." Then he will shut up.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
250.whatever. Back before 05 you could rebond the neutral but you could never repurpose an EGC and that is what the third wire is, it's not insulated it's just wrapped in sheathing.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I am going with 200. Something.
In there it tells you when a neutral can be bare.
In there it tells you when a neutral can be bare.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Well I looked there and cannot find it. All I see is "where insulated" and such.
200.2 says "if insulated".
I am not trying to argue for no reason, I do not mind getting shot down here-I just want the number of the bullet.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Find a 240 volt water softener.
Or set a 240x240/120 xfmr and establish a ground for the neutral
Or set a 240x240/120 xfmr and establish a ground for the neutral
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Well, gee wilickers Wally, I done knowed that.
What the Beaver wants to know is "Code reference, please." Then he will shut up.
Well I gave it a hard look and couldn't find anything that said outright that a grounded conductor had to be insulated, but the only place I could find express permission for it to be uninsulated was for services in 230.22 and 230.30. I'm going to have to spend some time in the dandelion patch and sort this out.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I am with you, when I posted "200.something" I was on the road. When I had a chance I went looking and so far I found the same as you.
I can't even find a general requirement for hot conductors to be insulated. :huh:
Yes, I know I can do that. That is called stating the obvious. I was looking for the code requirement that says it cannot be un insulated, not because the inspector says so.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Easy guy. Tom's option was a good one. Darn good chance this UF idea is gonna go down in flames.
Dzboyce
Senior Member
- Location
- Royal City, WA
- Occupation
- Washington 03 Electrician & plumber
I hadn't thought of using a step-down transformer to eliminate the need for the neutral wire from the main panel to the sub panel. I'll have to remember this.
Of course on new installations, I'm going to pull both an equipment grounding conductor and a neutral wire, along with the electrical conductors.
However my State Electrical Inspector is also going to require the following:
1. a 125 V single phase recepticle outlet, 210.50G2 or 210.64
2. Interior and exterior lighting outlets 210.70
3. Metallic well casing grounded 250.52A8
I WILL get a correction notice if I don't do all the above.
Of course on new installations, I'm going to pull both an equipment grounding conductor and a neutral wire, along with the electrical conductors.
However my State Electrical Inspector is also going to require the following:
1. a 125 V single phase recepticle outlet, 210.50G2 or 210.64
2. Interior and exterior lighting outlets 210.70
3. Metallic well casing grounded 250.52A8
I WILL get a correction notice if I don't do all the above.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Lol. I have actually wondered where that is in the code and contemplated throwing it out for discussion....
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
The more I look the more I can't find a solid code reference :blink:
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