seperate circuit for fridge, gas stove and small hood fan ok ?

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Good thread guys. It would be so convenient to tie the range hood to the range recpt since they are so close together. It's a bit confusing to name refrigeration part of the SABC.(Small?) I don't think a range hood draws as much as a fridge. If I had my druthers I would allow the range hood and outlet on the 2 SABC's but require a dedicated circuit for the fridge.
Then again if I was writing the code I'd probably be a lawyer or insurance guy. :roll:
 
It makes no sense but

It makes no sense but

Just to pass I am going to leave the hood on the third 20a kitchen circuit by itself even though it doesn't even draw 1 amp. The stove and fridge will be added to the 2 small app circuits.

What makes no sense is if you use only (2)SA circuits you can put the fridge on a circuit with high current small appliance loads such as fryers,toasters and warmers. However it is a violation if you add a third circuit and put the fridge and the little hood motor together. Go figure?
 
detroitelectrician said:
So I added a third circuit. I am not calling this third circuit a SA circuit.
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But the code does call it an SA circuit. You don’t get to install one circuit, and call it one thing, and install another circuit, and call it another thing. That is not the order in which things happen. The simple fact that it is installed at all is what gives it its name. See below.

detroitelectrician said:
If we added 10 dedicated 20 amp circuits in the kitchen are they automatically SA appliance circuits? I think not, so they would not fall under the requirements for SA circuits.
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All 10 would be SA circuits!

The key here is in 210.52(B)(1). Once you are in the kitchen, the moment you install any receptacle in the walls, or on the floor, or above the countertops, that act causes the circuit supplying the receptacle to become an SA circuit. It does not matter what you planned to call it, nor what you planned to use it for. 210.52(B)(1) says that the 2 or more SA circuits must supply all receptacles in these locations. Thus, if you are supplying a receptacle in these locations, that circuit becomes one of the “2 or more.”

{Edited to add: There are four exceptions to 210.52(B)(1) and (2). Only one of them allows for a dedicated circuit to not count as an SA circuit. Two of them allow for other loads to be served from an SA circuit. But the circuit must first be called into existence, and that requires that they serve one or more receptacle outlets in one of the listed rooms, before you talk about adding a range hood or clock to an SA circuit.}
 
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dcspector said:
Celtic....You are fast.
Thanks
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Not really ;)

We had the sub-zero discussion a few weeks back (can't find thread)...I had been running them with a 20A line....the debate ensued...I looked at damn near EVERY pdf over at the sub-zero site...NOT one called for a 20A line.


You tend to remember things that save some money :)
 
Celtic , I'm not sure I understand ,... are you saying that the refer cannot feed the ignition for the gas stove because that circuit does not contain a receptacle outlet other than that of the fridge and therfore is not a sabc??

If this circuit served a counter receptacle or one in the dinning room and then hit the frige would you agree that this circuit could serve the igniter.??
 
I know I am confused. :D

Here is how I see it.

You must feed a kitchen fridge from a SABC and from that same circuit you could supply a stove igniter.

OR

You can supply the fridge from a individual branch circuit either 15 or 20 amp.

If you use a 15 amp individual branch circuit all you can supply is the fridge.

If you use a 20 amp individual branch circuit you could decide to call it an additional SABC and supply a stove igniter as well.
 
I think this may be where the confusion occured...

celtic said:
I agree with your inspector.

The range, fridge, hood combo is chock full of violations.

The range COULD be on the SA circuit ~ 210.52(B)(2) Exception #2, but not along with the fridge ~ 210.52(B)(1) Exception #2.

The hood could NOT be on either of circuits for the reason citied in both exceptions.
Click to expand...

To expand upon this:
The range COULD be on the SA circuit (assumming it's 20A)~ 210.52(B)(2) Exception #2, but not along with the fridge (assuming it's a 15A)~ 210.52(B)(1) Exception #2.

IF the fridge circuit were to be 20A (which we discovered it IS at 8am today #22), then the range could be with it.


Any clearer?
 
celtic said:
I think this may be where the confusion occured...



To expand upon this:
The range COULD be on the SA circuit (assumming it's 20A)~ 210.52(B)(2) Exception #2, but not along with the fridge (assuming it's a 15A)~ 210.52(B)(1) Exception #2.

IF the fridge circuit were to be 20A (which we discovered it IS at 8am today #22), then the range could be with it.


Any clearer?
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Yes, thank you .

If the circuit was not rated at 20 amps it could not be a sabc.

The code making panel has made it clear that if an individual branch circuit rated @15 amps is employed for the frige, it can serve a duplex receptacle even if said receptacle is over the counter top . Lets say it is within reach of the range cord..
I guess if you or I were to plug the igniter in to it, and the frige were also connected , it would be a violation ,... what if the homeowner were to plug it in??
 
M. D. said:
Lets say it is within reach of the range cord..
I guess if you or I were to plug the igniter in to it, and the frige were also connected , it would be a violation ,... what if the homeowner were to plug it in??
Click to expand...

The only violation would be that there is no receptacle for the gas range... why else would you use the fridge receptacle?
 
M. D. said:
The code making panel has made it clear that if an individual branch circuit rated @15 amps is employed for the frige, it can serve a duplex receptacle even if said receptacle is over the counter top .
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How can this be article 210.52(B)(1) says all counter top outlets covered by 210.52(C) shall be 20 amp with 2 exceptions.

I don't see how a 15 amp refrig outlet can be compliant if it lands on the counter.
 
Dennis, this is what they had to say about it , It would not count as a receptacle outlet serving the counter top but it could be there as far as they are concerned.


2- 165 - (210-52(b)(1) Exception No. 2): Reject
SUBMITTER: Dan Leaf, Palmdale, CA
RECOMMENDATION: Revise to read as follows:
Exception No. 2: - A single receptacle for
refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an
individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
SUBSTANTIATION: Editorial. An individual branch circuit (per
definition) implies a single receptacle. The receptacle outlet (per
definition) may contain several receptacles. A duplex receptacle at
the edge of and above a countertop supplied by a small appliance
circuit is not prohibited from supplying a refrigerator. The
exception permits a 15 ampere circuit for such receptacle, with no
load calculation required.
PANEL ACTION: Reject.
PANEL STATEMENT: The panel has attempted to be reasonable
with the exception and not require a single receptacle be used.
The panel notes that the exception permits an additional circuit
to supply the refrigerator. It is recognized that frequently the
receptacle is indeed located behind the refrigerator making the
single receptacle requirement overly burdensome. Should the
outlet be close to or above the countertop, it would not count as
the required countertop outlet by 210-52(c) and another outlet
would be required to be installed and connected to the small
appliance branch circuit.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 12
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 12
 
Thanks Charlie B you made my point

Thanks Charlie B you made my point

When you said, "any 20 amp circuit in a kitchen must be called a SA circuit". If the HO wanted to go way above code and asked for all 20 amp circuits in the home because some guy told her 20 was much better than 15 amp circuits. Also in the kitchen she wanted all outlets an equipment on dedicated circuits. Even If I used 15 circuits when I put that little hood fan on a 20a dedicated circuit I have a violation.:D

Or do I? :confused:
 
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No, its not a violation. I use a 20 amp individual circuit for hood fans often. (I've been burned far too many times in the final by HOs changing to over-range-micros)
 
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