service calls and permits

Status
Not open for further replies.
satcom said:
Celtic.

This last May or June, they sent all the county prosecutors for a class on the electrical laws, since then, as you said a gold mine, and it is being enforced, i took the truck to the post office, i was only gone for 10 minutes, when i came back, the police were outside ready to arrest my guys, they did not see the placard in the window, if fell behind the couch, so they are out there looking, one outlet, can take down a home, just as easy as 10 can, i can't believe, anyone in business, would risk everything, by not permitting a job.

Here in Jersey the weekend hackers, and non permit guys, are in for a surprise, they use to think they were safe, because the construction office was closed, and no one was working, wait until they have to explain to their wife, they have $5,000 plus attorney fees to pay.
Click to expand...


This may be true but if we posted every case of a guy getting caught and receiving a fine it would be like a drop of water in the ocean when compared to all of the work being done out there everyday without permits or by unlicensed individuals. For every one installation where an individual gets caught there are thousands of installations that never get permitted or inspected. Just go to Big Orange on a Saturday and you'll see all of the weekend warriors buying material to do their own work. Most of them have little or no knowledge of what they're doing.

If the government wanted to make an impact all that they would need to do is have the police note when someone has an old toilet or kitchen counter out for the garbage guy and let the building dept follow up on the lead. Only problem there is that around here most of the inspectors are part time, under paid and already over worked. The system is completely flawed and as much as they like to publish things like $5000 fines, to date is has had little or no impact.

I have a friend, a fellow electrician, who is doing a side job wiring a pool. Homeowner takes out permit, my buddy calls the inspector and tells him that he's doing the work with the HO and the inspector tells him how to do the job. Doesn't seem like everyone is one the same page when stuff like that goes on everyday.
 
"I have a friend, a fellow electrician, who is doing a side job wiring a pool. Homeowner takes out permit, my buddy calls the inspector and tells him that he's doing the work with the HO and the inspector tells him how to do the job. Doesn't seem like everyone is one the same page when stuff like that goes on everyday."

The problem there is, the homeowner is not doing the work, now if the homeowner is doing the work himself, and your buddy is helping him with advice, that is fine, and the owner did the inportant thing, he took out a permit, now if the inspector knows that the owner is not directly doing the job, then the inspector is in the wrong, and you can file a complaint, with the attorney generals office, the contractors have to help clean up the industry, depending on goverment alone will not do it.
 
77401 said:
No one ever grows up hoping to some day move to Texas or Jersey.
Click to expand...
:D That's not true - these guys did:

Pedro Torres
Combes
Date of issuance: August 2, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Amador Espinoza
d/b/a AE Maintenance & Services
Los Fresno
Date of issuance: August 2, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Gustavo Medina
Brownsville
Date of issuance: August 2, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Oscar Resendez
d/b/a AAA Pronto Heating & Cooling
Hidalgo
Date of issuance: August 2, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Dimas Dimas
San Benito
Date of issuance: August 2, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Ruben Mendoza, Jr.
d/b/a Mendoza's A/C & Heating
Eagle Pass
Date of issuance: August 2, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Juan Garcia
d/b/a Juan's Applicances
Brownsville
Date of issuance: August 9, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Ruben Mendoza, Sr.
d/b/a Four Seasons Wholesale Distributors
Eagle Pass
Date of issuance: August 9, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Daniel Picazo
d/b/a Handee-Man,
Spring
Date of issuance: August 25, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license

Electrical

Carlos A. Garza
San Benito
Date of issuance: August 2, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Arturo Ornales
Brownsville
Date of issuance: August 2, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Victor Del Angel
Brownsville
Date of issuance: August 2, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Eli O. Salas
Harlingen
Date of issuance: August 9, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Raul Ornales
Brownsville
Date of issuance: August 22, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Jose E. Arroyo
Brownsville
Date of issuance: August 30, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.

Pedro Sifuentes
d/b/a Sifuentes Builder and Remodeler
Houston
Date of issuance: August 22, 2006
Violation: Operating without a license.
 
I have some vauge recollection, from when I studied for my test, that their was some mention of us (the potential EC) "...policeing your trade...your duty to report the unlicensed to the board..." and that sort of language.

Any of you NJ guys hear/recall this?
 
I have no problem with pulling permits foir every job. Well, okay, I have one problem with it:

If I pull a permit for anything, with a $55 minimum, and the hour it takes to apply, that adds approx. $150 to the cost, even for a $150 ceiling-fan install.

"Yes, ma'am, I charge $300, but I do it legally."

Now, if you can tell me how to get a job when the competition is willing to do it for half as much by skipping the permit, I'll be happy to pull one every time.
 
:)
Minuteman
They are working for gas to make their way to OKlahoma.

Policing our trade is a good thing, IMHO I have no problem with other licensed EC's. Its the unlicensed I occasionally turn in. The unlicensed that advertise are easy to catch. Call them for a job they show up! Its like shooting fish in a barrell.
If the state would put a bounty on them I'd be more proactive.
 
"even for a $150 ceiling-fan install."

There is no permit required for assy and to hang a ceiling fan, if you install a box and wire extension, then a permit would be required, and it should be more then $150 to wire and install, the guys around here are getting $250 and up to $350 for a ceiling fan install, i see some tryiing to do $69 installs they din't read the fine print, support box extra, dispatch fee applies, basic install is for fans with 12" blades, lighting additional $39, so the $69 install ends up costing $300, just like the $49 break job, it ends up costing $500, but it gets them in the door to sell them something else.
 
Out here on the left coast we rarely, if ever, pull permits on the small stuff. Sometimes we even do fairly large ($10-20k) without a permit. I wouldn't mind pulling a permit at all if it wasn't so darned much of a hassle. I've been doin' this for 3 decades and we know our stuff; but we are competing against unlicensed (people) !!!!!!!!!! I know the rules and I know when I break 'em & I'm not bragging about it. But when in Rome..........................

(removed derogatory comments)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
m73214 said:
I only pull a permit for larger jobs. It is a little ridiculas to pull a permit for a ceiling fan install or adding a couple of receptacles. Usually the AHJ's are understanding and figure if you are licensed, you'll do the job up to code regardless.
Click to expand...
If you worked for me I wouldn't let that slide. I pull permits for all my work It's cheap insurance. As far if your licensed I'll do the work up to code... I disagree I have had to fix alot of work that was done by "licensed" contractors that hacked it in.
 
bkludecke said:
Out here on the left coast we rarely, if ever, pull permits on the small stuff. Sometimes we even do fairly large ($10-20k) without a permit. I wouldn't mind pulling a permit at all if it wasn't so darned much of a hassle. I've been doin' this for 3 decades and we know our stuff; xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I know the rules and I know when I break 'em & I'm not bragging about it. But when in Rome..........................
Click to expand...
Not only is what you're doing a violation of the License board rules but unethical. In the event of a fire, the insurance company will ask the local building department for record of a final inspection. They probably will not pay the claim. That's where you will be called to the carpet. Also the property tax is based on square footage usually. You are stealing from the citizens of the State. You should be reported and put in jail. Don't blame the system try and fix it. You say they're illegal? What about you.

Edited derogatory comments from quote.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Permits here are required for anything more than "minor repair" work, defined as replacing defective devices. One inspector I frequently deal with told me recently that technically, a permit is required if you change out receptacles because you want a different color, but not if you are changing them out because they are defective. He went on to tell me that off the record, they aren't really interested in jobs that merely involve swapping out devices or fixtures. When I responded with "Who's to say they aren't defective?", he agreed with me. The general attitude is that swapping out devices is repairing, so permits aren't needed.

Anything more than that, though, requires a permit. The AHJs I deal with most often have expedited the process, so pulling the permit is pretty easy. I generally can pull them over the Internet or just mail them in.

As for the authorities cracking down, I know the state is gearing up to increase enforcement. They recently advertised a new full-time position where the entire job is to enforce the licensing laws.
 
"I have had to fix alot of work that was done by "licensed" contractors that hacked it in."

Pipemaster,

We notice the same, hacked work done by licensed contractors, they feel they have to compete, with the low end of the industry, instead of raising the standard, they lower to the hacks standard, and of course like any good hacker no permits, the good news is, the younger EC's around here are taking the high road, they feel they are worth something, and ask for a good rate, they operate in a professional manner, and permit their jobs, they are not the type to look in the rear mirror, looking at what the other guy does, or what he charges, but operate on good business practices, and they are getting the lions share of work, i noticed when they first came in my area, everyone was saying they would not last, they don't know the area, people will not pay that much, well it's over two years now, and they are hiring and adding trucks, and the old complainers that thought price, was the only thing that got work, are seeing a decline in their share of work.
 
pismo said:
Not only is what you're doing a violation of the License board rules but unethical. In the event of a fire, the insurance company will ask the local building department for record of a final inspection. They probably will not pay the claim. That's where you will be called to the carpet. Also the property tax is based on square footage usually. You are stealing from the citizens of the State. You should be reported and put in jail. Don't blame the system try and fix it. You say they're illegal? What about you.
Click to expand...
Stop it! Your killing me I'm laughing so hard I pee'd myself.
You can't be serious!
In the event of a fire, the insurance company will ask the HO, who did the work & for a receipt, Then they will collect from My Insurance company. And I'll apologize too. (Never happened though)
I'm stealing from the citizens of the State? Stealing means taking something they have. They don't have my permit fee so how is that stealing? LOL
Seriously our Insp Dept looses money now because the state took away their revenues from the local licenses. So I am actually saving our Insp Dept. Money.
Unethical? WHOA..... Did you know the Harvard School of business does not teach ethics? I know this because I went to Harvard... on a small job...Permited...but I was just an employee.
Not that its any of my business but is Pismo a Democrat? Uh Oh..... or just workin on his standup comedy?
 
Last edited:
"In the event of a fire, the insurance company will ask the local building department for record "

Well, pee some more, that is what the insurance companies are doing now, i was in the firehouse, when an insurance investigator came in looking for records, he was told they could not release any of the fire reports, he would have to go thru the township attorney, he said he going to the to township building department next to , check for recent work permits on that location.
 
satcom said:
Well, pee some more, that is what the insurance companies are doing now,
Click to expand...

Keep in mind it is a big Country and what is happening in your area is often not what is happening in other areas.

Even the same insurance companies have different rules in different areas as they have to follow each areas laws.
 
satcom said:
Well, pee some more, that is what the insurance companies are doing now, i was in the firehouse, when an insurance investigator came in looking for records, he was told they could not release any of the fire reports, he would have to go thru the township attorney, he said he going to the to township building department next to , check for recent work permits on that location.
Click to expand...

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the investigator was searching? Like maybe he couldnt fing the culprit ? All I'm syaing the invistagator would not have to search to that extint if the HO had a receipt from the alleged guilty parties and that party accepted the alleged fault. Thats all.
 
77401 said:
Stop it! Your killing me I'm laughing so hard I pee'd myself.
You can't be serious!
In the event of a fire, the insurance company will ask the HO, who did the work & for a receipt, Then they will collect from My Insurance company. And I'll apologize too. (Never happened though)
I'm stealing from the citizens of the State? Stealing means taking something they have. They don't have my permit fee so how is that stealing? LOL
Seriously our Insp Dept looses money now because the state took away their revenues from the local licenses. So I am actually saving our Insp Dept. Money.
Unethical? WHOA..... Did you know the Harvard School of business does not teach ethics? I know this because I went to Harvard... on a small job...Permited...but I was just an employee.
Not that its any of my business but is Pismo a Democrat? Uh Oh..... or just workin on his standup comedy?
Click to expand...
You are still violating the contractors laws. The state runs off of fees and taxes. I don't agree with some of the rules either and yes it is very time consuming and very frustrating to pull permits in some places, but I do it because in the event of a fire. I've seen it many times the fire department can't seem to pinpoint the cause so they say it was an electrical fire. I usually exclude permits and fees from my contracts. The bottom line is the owner of the building is responsible. Sorry if I hammered on you but it is frustrating to compete with EC's who don't pull permits. They don't have to wait for inspections or get called on something silly.
 
pismo said:
You are still violating the contractors laws. The state runs off of fees and taxes. I don't agree with some of the rules either and yes it is very time consuming and very frustrating to pull permits in some places, but I do it because in the event of a fire. I've seen it many times the fire department can't seem to pinpoint the cause so they say it was an electrical fire. I usually exclude permits and fees from my contracts. The bottom line is the owner of the building is responsible. Sorry if I hammered on you but it is frustrating to compete with EC's who don't pull permits. They don't have to wait for inspections or get called on something silly.
Click to expand...
If you think it's frustrating to compete w/ licensed ECs who don't pull permits, try competeing in a market overrun w/"handymen" (retirees supplementing there income by doing sidework) and dayworkers (legal and illegal) working for cash and not paying taxes. You want me in jail? Fine. Then you can house me, feed me and give me free medical/dental AND you can then pull more permits feeling smug about what a great EC you are. With the exception of not pulling a permit on every 2bit job we are actually quite legit. We pay taxes, have insurance, have worker comp, pay excellent wages and benefits etc. I am constantly trying to "fix the problem" by writing legislators and educating the public. I stay current on codes and laws that affect our trade etc, and I don't need anyone telling me that I need to do jailtime for not pulling a permit Lighten up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top