Service change

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bpk

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I havent done much resi. work under the 08 code, but a guy asked me to get him a bid on a service change. Do you have to use arc faults if you are changeing the service and installing new breakers ? I would call our local inspector to ask but its saturday.
 
In most of the AHJs I work in, if it's just a panel swap (ie, remove an old panel that's needing replaced for safety reasons), then no AFCIs required. If you install an entire new service (or upgrade from 60 to 100 amp, or 100 to 200 amp) then AFCIs are required.
 
As much as I would like to see AFCI's added I could not make you install them.

As we read 210.12 (B) it says "installed". This does not apply to existing branch circuits.
 
480sparky said:
In most of the AHJs I work in, if it's just a panel swap (ie, remove an old panel that's needing replaced for safety reasons), then no AFCIs required.
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This is a reasonable policy.

If you install an entire new service (or upgrade from 60 to 100 amp, or 100 to 200 amp) then AFCIs are required.
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This is a crazy & counter productive policy that is in logical opposition to the other policy absent additional interior rehab work that will have the walls open to deal with the MWBC's.
 
BryanMD said:
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This is a crazy & counter productive policy that is in logical opposition to the other policy absent additional interior rehab work that will have the walls open to deal with the MWBC's.
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Typically, a service upgrade also invokes other changes. 2 SABCs, dedicated circuits where required, 20a bath, GFIs where required, seperate range & AC (something done quire frequently in old fused services), furnace & sump seperated, ground lights in bathrooms, front & rear exterior recept, etc. If there's any ungrounded recep circuits, either GFI & label them or install 2-slots. The inspectors are pretty reasonable when it comes to upgrades. They realized that not everyone can afford to tear out all their drywall and/or plaster & lath, so some things just don't get done.
But still, what the HO is left with a far safer home than before. Besides, I have yet to see a knob & tube MWBC.
 
480sparky said:
Typically, a service upgrade also invokes other changes. 2 SABCs, dedicated circuits where required, 20a bath, GFIs where required, seperate range & AC (something done quire frequently in old fused services), furnace & sump seperated, ground lights in bathrooms, front & rear exterior recept, etc. If there's any ungrounded recep circuits, either GFI & label them or install 2-slots. The inspectors are pretty reasonable when it comes to upgrades. They realized that not everyone can afford to tear out all their drywall and/or plaster & lath, so some things just don't get done.
But still, what the HO is left with a far safer home than before. Besides, I have yet to see a knob & tube MWBC.[/QUOTE]

That is surprizing to me, most all the K&T that I come across is MWBC from the panel then it breaks to 2 wire as it runs through the house. No way you could just put a arc fault at the panel and be done.
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I cannot find anything in the NEC that would require an upgrade of branch circuits from a service upgrade or replacement.

Although if possible, it would be advisable, especially if you are installing all new OCPDs but not required UNLESS you have a local ordinance requiring it.

I offer it at an additional fee and see if the homeowner's want it.
 
ivsenroute said:
I cannot find anything in the NEC that would require an upgrade of branch circuits from a service upgrade or replacement.

Although if possible, it would be advisable, especially if you are installing all new OCPDs but not required UNLESS you have a local ordinance requiring it.

I offer it at an additional fee and see if the homeowner's want it.
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It is not in the NEC and IMO anyone that enforces that is absolutely going beyond their authority. I would be responsible for any circuits I add and that's it.

Now their are things in the IRC -- building code --- that seem to be taking an approach that seems to be contrary to my first statement. For instance, any remo work on the interior of a house would require at least battery operated smoke detectors to be installed to present code. If there is access from beneath or above or if any walls are opened then the detectors must be wired and interconnected.
 
480sparky said:
Typically, a service upgrade also invokes other changes. 2 SABCs, dedicated circuits where required, 20a bath, GFIs where required, seperate range & AC (something done quire frequently in old fused services), furnace & sump seperated, ground lights in bathrooms, front & rear exterior recept, etc. If there's any ungrounded recep circuits, either GFI & label them or install 2-slots.
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Here, all that stuff only has to be done if one's renovation exceeds the 50% by sq. footage point. A service change or upgrade only affects the service. One may certainly opt to bring the entire premises to present requirements.
The inspectors are pretty reasonable when it comes to upgrades. They realized that not everyone can afford to tear out all their drywall and/or plaster & lath, so some things just don't get done.
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You mean they base the extent of required work on the depth of the HO's pockets? :confused: I'm all for compliance :)wink:), but I like to think it's just as illegal to require something incorrectly as it is to pass a noncompliant job.
But still, what the HO is left with a far safer home than before. Besides, I have yet to see a knob & tube MWBC.
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That's probably because most K&T work was done when houses only had a 30a 1220v service, with both conductors fused, no less.


The option to sell the customer on extra safety and convenience is always there. It's simple fair play to separate what's required from what's a really good idea.
 
I would call our local inspector to ask but its saturday.
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He is the only one that can give you the answer. In AZ, we don't have to upgrade anything but the bonding/grounding.

Just add an option on your proposal for AFCI's etc if required.
 
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