Service Entrance Help Needed

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wvelectrician67

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Morgantown, WV
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Journeyman Electrician
Sorry folks, new guy here and of course needing serious help. My situation is this:
I work at a place that is responsible for the ground mounted meters in a mobile home park. This place is antiquated as are the meter sockets. These sockets are required to have a service rated breaker in them but they are now discontinued. The breaker needed is an ITE Siemens HQ2100BH. One of the owners of the company is also an electrical engineer. He wants me to use Siemens Q2100 double pole breaker claiming that the fact that one is a quad and the other a double is just "over engineered horse..." He's trying to rely on the Code book but we all know that it's UL or someone of that ilk that makes that determination - not NEC. If anyone could point me to where I can find the answer to this guy in black and white before he drives me crazy. Obviously, the situation is that an upgrade is long overdue and it will be very expensive to get it done. Thanks!
 
electrofelon said:
The existing breaker seems to be a very high AIC unit. A Q2100 is only 10k. Do you know what the available fault current is?

Does the Q2100 physically fit?
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I do not know the available fault current is.The Q2100 actually fits perfectly and because some the houses are older, it actually handles the small loads well enough. I have actually only witnessed the meltdown and burn out of 2. It's more of an issue of rating by UL or someone who has determined that service duty disconnects are built of more and better stuff to deal with higher temperatures within the unit itself. I read somewhere a few years back that the difference was that the Q2100 is only intended for single appliance usage where the proper one is made to handle multiple motors and/or appliances simultaneously. Additionally, I think also for the safety of the linemen who connect and disconnect under load which I assume is less safe with the Q2100 which would be more subject to an arcing incident when disconnecting under load.
I have read many different ideas about the why of it all but the truth is that someone somewhere along the way has determined that these are this way for a reason and who that was and why is what I have to find out. This guy has gotten away with sending guys out who were not qualified electricians to install improper ones for years before I started here so I'm getting pushback because he's already gotten away with this many times over the years.
 
Consider that it is common and perfectly acceptable to install a backfed breaker as a main.

I think the only violation may be 110.3 "manufacturer's instructions" if it defines a specific type of breaker be used as the main.
 
wvelectrician67 said:
Thank you! That may be enough to do it lol
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Usually the back fed breaker as a main needs to be able to be attached by means of a screw to keep it in place. Also the high AIC rating is its ability to handle to available current from the transformer serving the site and break that in rush current without exploding. One should be careful taking that responsibility of engineering. When people or property starts getting damaged or worse that responsibility is still their burden.
 
There is no difference real between a service duty breaker and a standard breaker. All breakers, since the mid 80's, have been rated and UL tested for multiple motors.

All breakers need to be applied within their AIC rating. You need to determine if your available fault current is less than that of the breaker you are planning to use.
 
Suzuki360 said:
Usually the back fed breaker as a main needs to be able to be attached by means of a screw to keep it in place. Also the high AIC rating is its ability to handle to available current from the transformer serving the site and break that in rush current without exploding. One should be careful taking that responsibility of engineering. When people or property starts getting damaged or worse that responsibility is still their burden.
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I agree. It's my assumption that an AIC rating of 100 is to assure the linemen safety if disconnecting under load. This is a matter that has been explained to the engineer boss but so far has not been accepted by him - dollar signs and the fact that he has already gotten away with this for years before I came along. Thanks for taking the time to share with me and that goes for everyone who has answered. The way electricians pull together to help one another has always been one of things that allows a person to take pride in their craft
 
jim dungar said:
There is no difference real between a service duty breaker and a standard breaker. All breakers, since the mid 80's, have been rated and UL tested for multiple motors.

All breakers need to be applied within their AIC rating. You need to determine if your available fault current is less than that of the breaker you are planning to use.
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Thanks for your answer also and you're absolutely correct. As a result of dealing with this issue I have dug into the Code book, UL standards and Siemens' resources and found that the only real difference between service and normal duty is the AIC rating and physical size. I've already made the decision to step away from this job and leave him to his own devices because he will not stop doing this and I will have no part of it. If I can't stop him I'll just leave
 
wvelectrician67 said:
Thanks for your answer also and you're absolutely correct. As a result of dealing with this issue I have dug into the Code book, UL standards and Siemens' resources and found that the only real difference between service and normal duty is the AIC rating and physical size. I've already made the decision to step away from this job and leave him to his own devices because he will not stop doing this and I will have no part of it. If I can't stop him I'll just leave
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There is nothing wrong with using a 10kAIC breaker for a service as long as the available fault current is less than this. The engineer should be able to calculate this value.

The AIC has to do with the breaker operation while opening and clearing a short circuit fault. It is not related to load make or break.
 
I have had some schooling on that sort of thing but not going to attempt it myself. The sad part of this whole situation is that this particular person was involved in the calculations of all of that from the very beginning - and why I'm so confused about his actions now. He knows what's going on so I think that there is more involved here than just a matter of saving money and why I've decided to move on to greener pastures but I thank you for your answer. There's just no talking to someone who has all the answers and demands that you bend over backwards to accommodate him. He's an engineer and knows best ...
 
Shouldn't it be easy enough that to determine the available fault current once you identify the transformer? I wouldn't think moble homes would have anything running in them that would significantly contribute to available fault current.
 
An electric furnace pulls 100 amps when running and this would be the most likely culprit in such a situation. The meters here come directly from the transformer and I pretty well know which transformers go to which houses because I have worked with the linemen here and Mon's contractors on several such jobs. I guess for me it's a matter of the lack of regard for the health and well-being of all of us who deal with it. It's very unlikely that we would be presented with such a situation but we don't know what's been done inside the houses of the residents here and thus no way of knowing what, if anything, could cause it. This place is very old and some of these things are 30 years old and people have expanded as their lives and families have. It truly is more a matter of ensuring the safety of everyone involved and the person who obviously won't be harmed not caring enough about those who would. He has the ability and means to do so to justify himself but he refuses to because he knows what he is doing is wrong but just doesn't care.
 
There is no conceivable load in a residence with a 100A service that contribute a substantial amount of current into a fault. Even a 100A motor load would be unlikely to contribute more than about 600A into a short circuit fault.

But it is your right to walk away from a job you are not comfortable with.
 
It's good to know that. I have been relaying the discussion of this thread with my immediate boss who is related to the man I'm speaking of and we've decided to confront him directly about the matter. He refuses to say anything directly as an order because he doesn't want to accept any responsibility (or likely, liability) for what he's doing. If he gives a direct order to stop what I'm doing, I'll just quit and go my own way but anything short of a direct order to stop, I'm going to continue and he will just have to fire me. Some of the issue here is that the AHJ requires these disconnects to be there for their convenience so no matter what the Code or anyone else says they have to be there and in perfect working order. Sooner or later he'll have to deal with them more because they are also a part of this mixture. My immediate boss is glad to have me because I am an electrician and her life has become much simpler because of it so we're going to take a wait and see stance until we see how he responds to this. Thanks again to all who have weighed in on this - having the use of your experience and knowledge has been a big help even if it only reaffirms what I already discovered cuz at least I know I'm on the right track
 
electrofelon said:
Based on the sound of it, I doubt the available fault current is very high. Are these smallish pad mounts, like 25-50 KVA?
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I'm not absolutely sure of the rating on these but they are very similar to what you ask. They're all buried rather than pad mounted (God knows that I wish they were pad mounted because replacing them would be much easier!) Truth of the matter is that most of them are in need of replacement because they're old enough that they're rusting out at and below ground level. The biggest problem for my immediate boss is that she has to deal with the owners of the homes and keep them happy while trying to get grudging cooperation from her boss. Sometimes it's good to be the little man!
 
These things are so old there's no information on them anywhere. They were made by ITE and no one from Siemens that I've spoken with know anything about them since they were made long before they bought ITE out
 
Any way an Eaton would fit and be listed as a replacement. They would be rated 10/22.
Then no one looses there job.
Offer a solution in place argument.

Ask you utility what they they limit the available for these installations since there utility fed. Most will have a 10,000 limit.
Get these fact from them. Should be in there standards or a call to the rep.

How about when one has to be replaced an upgrade to better equipment. Then it can be done with out major up front cost. Then the upgrade can be a code compliant up grade.
Include a cost into you solution as an option.
Try working with the engineer.
Just a thought.
 

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