Service Rigid Pipe

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C

ccf

Member
Project Location: Los Angeles
Scenario: Window at second floor is above the location of the main panel located on the first floor. My Electrician used two bent rigid pipes and connected it together creating about 6" of horizontal pipe to miss window and stub up the roof.

Inspector said that this is not in compliance because you cannot have a horizontal pipe if your rigid pipe is in the wall.

Is there a maximum allowable horizontal run for this type of situation?

To visualize better, you can see the diagram at http://www.ccforteza.com/rigid.pdf

Thank you.
 
charlie

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

Scott is correct. However, it is California and, I am sure, they have local amendments. That is to say that the local or state government may have changed the NEC to permit this type of installation. Additionally, some inspectors will enforce the local electric utility rules for service, this may be affected by both.

I recommend that you talk to the electrical contractor and let him take care of the problem. He is the one with the expertise and can (will?) talk to the inspector. As far as the NEC is concerned, the installation is very wrong since the service entrance conductors are in the wall. :D
 
tonyi

tonyi

Senior Member
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

I would think once you've penetrated a wall from the outside, the disconnect nearest point of entry stuff starts to apply.

I don't see where (as far as the NEC is concerned) the bends are relevant to the real issue. Services are routed in all sorts of serpintine ways all the time.
 
russ

russ

Senior Member
Location
Burbank IL
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

I had another reply, but erased it. I do have a question. How does the service feed go from the roof to the Main panel, and skip the meter.

[ November 15, 2003, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: russ ]
 
C

ccf

Member
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

Thank you for all your replies. I've added few more information on my drawing to explain it further http://www.ccforteza.com/rigid.pdf .

Yes, the rigid pipe is in the wall secured with 2 unistruts per floor and yes, it is allowed in Los Angeles to place your rigid pipe in the wall and it's done all the time.

The inspector said that if you are running it horizontally, the pipe needs to be embedded into a min. 2" thk. concrete covering.

My point is, there might be an exception to this rule since the horizontal part of the fittings is only about 6". He would allow 45 degrees bends with no problem.

My electrician is going to fix the problem whatever it takes, this is really more on the "
educating myself" part not to just say "YES" to whatever the inspector says.

Thank you very much again.

CCF
 
P

pierre

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

CCF
Service Entrance Conductors, even in Rigid conduit are not permitted to be installed inside of a wall. Some jurisdictions permit the SEC to enter the building and travel some distance, but they will not permit them 'inside' walls, unless of course they are encased by 2 inches of concrete or brick.

Pierre
 
C

ccf

Member
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

Pierre:

In Los Angeles, it is permited. In fact, even when LADWP (Los Angeles Department of Water and Power) spots your meter, they provide you with a diagram on how to run/secure your rigid pipe inside your wall.

Any Angelinos out there?

CCF
 
G

Guest

Guest
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

In California in the local jurisdictions I've worked in (mostly SF Bay Area) the preferred installation is in the wall. For new construction we use flush, or semi-flush meter/mains or meter/main-combos.

The order of preference would be:

1. Flush or semi-flush underground service feeder.
2. Flush or semi-flush overhead drop.
3. Surface mounted underground service feeder.
4. Surface mounted overhead drop.

New construction is always in the wall.

Change-outs are typically done to match the existing whether flush, semi-flush, or surface.

Add-on retrofits usually go surface mount unless in a "good" neighborhood.

Electrical & Mechanical Inspectors can get bug-eyed when certain things are run horizontal.

PoCo usually limits service entrace conductors bends to maximum of 360 degrees (i.e.- 4 @ 90-degrees).

Next time I would suggest using 1/8 bends if only for posterity.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

This post had been an "inside joke" but it made no sense. :roll:

[ May 02, 2004, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
B

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

I have installed many services in California. The plate is drilled and the riser 2' rigid is stuck up through the plate. The main panels are semi flush combination type. California has the best method I have ever seen, for services. The 2 inch rigid riser is always used for attaching the drop. The building structure is never used.

What is the code section that does not permit this procedure? Believe me, I have seen homes I wired 50 years ago, that are still in good shape.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

Bennie most of my post was a joke.

That was something Wayne posted in response to a MA amendment I posted.

As far as the code rule, now your joking right?

[ November 15, 2003, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
B

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

Bob: I don't understand. Are you saying there is a violation to conceal the riser in the wall?
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

Bennie you don't understand?

I have a hard time believing that, but I will play along. ;)

230.70(A)(1) would have the disconnect nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.

Now around here that generally means 5' to 6' max unless we encase in concrete.

From the responses of others in this forum I would say that most places would not allow 10' 15' 20' of service conductors inside the building.
 
B

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

No! I have never heard of the riser inside a wall being considered as an entry.

There is many semi flush service panels, and meter bases with a UL listing. I don't think a listing can be made on a product that can not be installed.
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

You seem to be earnest, Bennie.

For most of the country, the point at which the service conductors, whether in cable or raceway, enter the building envelope, is
the point of entrance of the service conductors. 230.70(A)(1)
Click to expand...
In the scenario that CCF illustrates above in his diagram, the point of entrance is the roofing membrane.

Minnesota says five feet measured along the cable or raceway is the max.
 
B

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

An auxiliary gutter with service entrance conductors can extend 30 feet in the building,
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Service Rigid Pipe

I could not do that here Bennie.

Service disconnect within about 5' of the point of entrance.

Does not matter if it is PVC, SE, RMC or gutter.

If I can not locate it that close it goes in concrete or the service switch goes outside and only a feeder comes inside.
 
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