Services

[dema]

230.2 and 225.30 (D)

230 states that different rates are a just cause for having more than one service in a building. 225 says that in the case of multiple buildings, different purposes within a building service area are a just cause for more than one service in that building. I am totally unclear as to what a justifiable different purpose is. I also don't understand why the two sections on number of allowed services differ in this regard.

If I want to put a 400A panel on a different service and only supply heating and other mechanical loads from it, may I do so whether or not there is more than one building on the premises? Some utilities give different rates when this is done, some don't. Would the fact that these are mechanical loads vs. receptacle, lighting and general purpose loads, always qualify as a 'different use'?

 

[steve66]

Re: Services

A service is provided by the utility, and they are covered by article 230. Feeders and branch circuits are covered by article 225. (Examples of these would be power from a house to a detached garage, or to different buildings on one site). Article 225 doesn't say anything about services.

I don't think anything allows different services for a different "purpose". If you are thinking residential or small commercial, different rates are often accomplished with a single service and sub-metering.

Even if the AHJ agrees to a second service, the utility will also have to agree to provide one. I doubt that will happen for anything small like 400A.

Steve

 

[hurk27]

Re: Services

Steve this is done in many parts of the country. and many utility's will charge a lower cost for the heating and air conditioning meter than the power and lighting meter. We have installed several of these and even one at a Super 8 motel.

 

[charlie]

Re: Services

Keep in mind what the definition of service is in Article 100, it is either a service drop or service lateral. 230.2 is not talking about service equipment but services.

 

[steve66]

Re: Services

Hurk:

OK, I'll take you're word for it that the utilities don't mind providing a second service. But I have also seen them install a sub meter. All the power goes through the main meter, and then the HVAC is ran through a second meter (a CT in the customers panel). The KWH's read by the second meter are given a discount rate.

Charlie: I understand what you said, but I am missing your point. Wouldn't one lateral feeding two pieces of service equipment still be two services?

 

[hurk27]

Re: Services

Steve look at 230.2

230.2 Number of Services.
A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D). For the purpose of 230.40, Exception No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors, 1/0 AWG and larger, running to the same location and connected together at their supply end but not connected together at their load end shall be considered to be supplying one service.

It is still one service.

[ November 17, 2004, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: Services

And the exception that permits this is

230.40 Exception No. 2: Where two to six service disconnecting means in separate enclosures are grouped at one location and supply separate loads from one service drop or lateral, one set of service-entrance conductors shall be permitted to supply each or several such service equipment enclosures.

Keep in mind that the service drop stops at the attachment of the drop to the riser pole. Then it is service entrance conductors. laterals stop at the point where they exit the ground.

[ November 17, 2004, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[charlie]

Re: Services

Most electric utilities will not install multiple services unless there is no other way to do it. Why spend the money if it is not needed?

 

[hurk27]

Re: Services

But Charlie are we talking about service's or an extra cash register? as you call them.

 

[charlie]

Re: Services

Wayne, we will normally install a single service for multiple meters. Why install a separate service drop or lateral if we can serve more than one service disconnecting means from the same service? We will install more than one service where there are multiple transformer banks or the load is too great for a single service or if the building is too large, or . . .

 

[hurk27]

Re: Services

I agree Charlie but I was just trying to keep it clear to the original poster and Steve that this is allowed and common in some areas of the country. (The cold areas I might add )

 

[steve66]

Re: Services

Hurk:

I think we all agree there are ways for the POCO to provide different rates for energy use without providing a second service. That was the point I tried to make in my origional post.

Since Charlie calls the main meter a "cash register", I think sub meters should be called "ATM's" since they give money back to the customer

Steve

 

[dema]

Re: Services

Service: the conductors and equipment from the utility.
230.72 - the two to six disconnects shall be grouped
225.34 also talks about the two to six disconnects being grouped.

The situation is that of running separate sets of conductors from the utility or another building into the building in question and mounting the disconnects separately. Is this allowed when the panelboards being served are serving HVAC vs. non-HVAC loads and none of the other conditions are met? Is it okay for section 225? What about section 230? I have a customer that routinely likes to do this.

In the most recent case, a customer wanted one distribution panelboard for non-HVAC loads, and another, separately mounted 400A panelboard for the HVAC.

This particular case was actually a section 225 case - the cabling was being run from another building. In order to play it safe, I insisted that the feeds be at different voltages. That seems to very clearly be allowed. My question is, "did I need to insist on this"? Could there have been two panelboards for different purposes with different feeds coming from outside the building and meet code?

 

[charlie]

Re: Services

The problem you are getting into here is that Panel 4 wants only one circuit to feed a building and the rules of Article 230 to generally apply. Article 225 has been changed considerably to reflect that desire and you are now working with the results.

If you wish to hit the building with more than one feeder, Article 225 has to be complied with and that includes 225.30. You are correct, the way you took will work but you could also get special permission and invoking the second paragraph of 90.4.