Servicing recessed mercury-vapor lighting

[LarryFine]

Update time

Update time

Okay, update time. Here's what I now know:

Bulb type: 175w metal halide, G.E. MVR 175 CU
Ballast type: #57 (any idea what that means?)
Supply voltage: 277v. (there goes the CFL idea)

Also, the bulb reads 'multi-vapor'. What does that mean?


Would everyone agree with replacing the ballasts while I'm up there, even if new bulbs alone work?

 

[LarryFine]

I would expect these to be Metal Halides, not Merc Vapor.

Right you (and others) are!

If I'm replacing ballasts, should I consider anything other than metal halide again?

Is the ballasts' #57 something I need, or just the voltage and bulb power and type?

 

[Cow]

Larry for how much trouble it is to get up there and change lamps, combined with the fact I think you said it's been 10 years or so I would most likely put ballasts and lamps in all of them. It shouldn't be a hard sell at all to the customer.

Odds are the one you just put a lamp in will crap out a week after you leave.:roll:

I don't know anything about #57 ballasts, I'd just buy any universal ballast and go on my way. I haven't needed a manufacturer specific ballast yet for regular HID lighting.

 

[jeremysterling]

"M57" is a specified ballast configuration for 175W metal halide luminaires.

"M47" is the ballast for 1000W MH lum. There seems to be no rhyme or sequence to this ballast numbering system. "M47" is also the ballast configuration for a different wattage of mercury vapor light.

150W M107
175W M57
250W M58
400W M59
1000W M47
1500W M48
1650W M112

I threw away a chart that has all these numbers on it because I just tell the vendor I need a 175W MH ballast.

Yes, "multi vapor" is "metal halide"

I would relamp all and restore power. Then inspect the power source and sockets of the ones that did not light up and if OK, then change the ballast.

Larry, make sure you know socket size and lamp shape of the lamp. Most likely to be medium base and ED17 shape:

http://www.venturelighting.com/LampsHTMLDocuments/standardmetalhalide.html#175W

 

[nez]

I agree with trying lamps first. If it lights dont change the ballast. Order ballasts for half of the lights and return the ones you dont use.

 

[LarryFine]

Larry for how much trouble it is to get up there and change lamps, combined with the fact I think you said it's been 10 years or so I would most likely put ballasts and lamps in all of them. It shouldn't be a hard sell at all to the customer.

No, and this is my plan. I just found out that the mall has a boom lift that should just reach (even with PJ in the bucket ). They're the originals that have been going out one at a time over the 13 years since the mall was built, so I've been told. I just hope to take eight compatible ballasts with me, as well as bulbs.

I don't know anything about #57 ballasts, I'd just buy any universal ballast and go on my way. I haven't needed a manufacturer specific ballast yet for regular HID lighting.

That's why I showed pix of the fixtures. So "universal" really is?

Thanx!

 

[LarryFine]

I would relamp all and restore power. Then inspect the power source and sockets of the ones that did not light up and if OK, then change the ballast.

That contradicts the above advice and my own opinion. Caps dry out, and this is in a particularly warm location: just under the roof, above a tall 2-story "hole in the floor" for the escalator. (See pix in post #1)

I think it would be silly to do only bulbs. How much could 8 277v ballasts cost? I'll price them locally Monday, of course, but an idea would be appreciated.

Larry, make sure you know socket size and lamp shape of the lamp. Most likely to be medium base and ED17 shape:

http://www.venturelighting.com/LampsHTMLDocuments/standardmetalhalide.html#175W

That site isn't easy to find a good pic, but I believe the envelope is the middle of three sizes I've seen, not the small, which rules out the medium base. And I doubt they're the huge ones.

If you look at the pic in post #1, you can see the recessed tip of the bulb. I think they're frosted, and the typical 'foot-ball shape', and the store maintenance guy told me they were "not regular bulb sized, but the next size up."

Thanx!

 

[LarryFine]

I agree with trying lamps first. If it lights dont change the ballast. Order ballasts for half of the lights and return the ones you dont use.

I definitely will take 8 ballasts with me. I'm consdering taking 10, just in case. I think replacing the ballasts will be better than having to explain why I have to make a return trip.

On another call for them (120v circline fluorescents), I recommended replacing the fixtures instead of futzing with ballasts and bulbs, and they heartily agreed, and later thanked me.

 

[iwire]

Larry here is how I would probably handle it.

Replace lamps and ballast kits in every fixture, I would not even troubleshoot it.

Here we are obligated to a one year guarantee and due to the high PITA factor of getting to these fixtures I would not roll the dice on the old ballasts caps and maybe igniter's. Yeah, some, or all of them may be fine but there will be know way to really know.

Most likely these are "F-Can" ballasts

http://www.advance.philips.com/ProductBrand.aspx?id=2&pcid=4&pbid=23

Pull down the trim and take a mirror and light and you will be able to see the ballasts and how it is mounted, most have some sort of spring lever that releases them and enough flex that you can bring them down out of the ceiling to do the wiring and then put it back up.

Once you get a look at it the first time with the mirror you can do it by feel.

 

[A-1Sparky]

I agree. While you're there, just go all new ballast kits and lamps. Larry, FWIW--they do have 277v CFs available now (if you were still considering going the CF route).

 

[George Stolz]

I think it would be silly to do only bulbs. How much could 8 277v ballasts cost? I'll price them locally Monday, of course, but an idea would be appreciated.

(deleted price estimate - I was thinking of the wrong thing.

I agree with everyone who says to do both. It's enough of a PITA to do this, may as well only be once.

 

[LarryFine]

All good advice, as usual. I don't know if I can swing two trips, but I'll see if they agree.

 

[iwire]

Drive carefully, those boom lifts are not gentle when you bump things.:grin:

 

[LarryFine]

Drive carefully, those boom lifts are not gentle when you bump things.:grin:

I hear you. I have to sigh a waiver to borrow the mall's lift.

 

[nez]

Dont forget to wear a harness on a boom lift. It is a osha finable violation if you get caught.

Also, I do retail maintenance on some contracts. Usually the stores only want to pay for ballast if it is bad. IF the light is lit everybody is happy. If the lamps have never been changed and they light immediatly after relamp it is probably good for a while. Im supprised a big chain store like sears is not on a retail maintenance contract. They really beat you down on pricing.

 

[sparky=t]

Dont forget to wear a harness on a boom lift. It is a osha finable violation if you get caught.

Also, I do retail maintenance on some contracts. Usually the stores only want to pay for ballast if it is bad. IF the light is lit everybody is happy. If the lamps have never been changed and they light immediatly after relamp it is probably good for a while. Im supprised a big chain store like sears is not on a retail maintenance contract. They really beat you down on pricing.

thats for sure, I quoted m.h. ballsts installed at a mall last november, way up in the atrium along the common area, my prive installed was less than they could buy the ballasts for, guess what they e-mailed me today and asked if the price was still good and want to purchase the ballasts before the end of the year and install them next year... do I look like a supply house?

I told them I would have to check pricing when I get back in town on friday, I will only quote them installed!

 

[sparky=t]

for got to say 100- 70 watt m.h. ballasts and 100 100 watt m.h. ballasts

 

[Cavie]

You may very well need exact replacement ballasts to keep all the wires contained. Mounting is tricky and hard to access. Wire compartments are very tight. Remember, no exposed wireing. I have found many of these with replacement ballast just laying next to the fixture with all wire and wirenuts exposed. This is a T & M job if there ever was one.

 

[hurk27]

You may very well need exact replacement ballasts to keep all the wires contained. Mounting is tricky and hard to access. Wire compartments are very tight. Remember, no exposed wireing. I have found many of these with replacement ballast just laying next to the fixture with all wire and wirenuts exposed. This is a T & M job if there ever was one.

These ballast are very simple, they only have 4 wires out one end, lamp center pin (red), Neutral (common with lamp shell). 120 volt (BLK) 277 volt(orange), they are heavy, about the same size and weight as a two lamp HO ballast (look just like one except less wires).
Here they cost about $75.00 ballast, $26.00 lamp

Don't know about there, but here the only ballast available is the pulse start 175 watt, and it the same with lamps, so if you cant get the regular MH bulbs then you might have to change both ballast and bulbs, or visa versa, as almost all our supply houses have stopped carrying anything but pulse start.

just a thought

 

[LarryFine]

How tight are you with your supply house? Would they let you take a bunch of different lamps and ballasts to the job and just return what you don't use?

I asked both places if I bought 10 (in case of a bad new part), could I return 2, and they basically said "yes," but I'd rather not have to carry 20 sets just to cover bases. The store guy confirmed bulb type.

I will include statements about an extra trip charge if necessary due to inaccuracies about this information. I will also recommend a two-trip allowance to open one fixture before buying parts to avoid this.