Settle a bet? 210.52

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e57

e57

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San Francisco, CA
You make the call - is it wall space - does it count?

For ref' heres the wording....

(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.

(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
(2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings
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Existing fixed window, new floor surface, but existing structural floor in a high rise (typically local AHJ wont force existing walls or surfaces to meet current codes - so there is often a point to aurgue...) - but new walls wrapping a column. The column is away from the window, but wrapped it back to the start of the window. Is it wall space?
wall space.jpg
 
I would agree with you that this creates a new wall space; would I require a receptacle to be installed because of this?....prob. not. Each situation is different, but if that is the only change taking place I wouldn't require it.
 
Do I understand correctly? Your questioned area is floor that is 1' x 3' rectangular area. One three foot side is fixed window, the other 3 foot side is your typical wall like plaster, drywall, etc. and the 1 foot sides are open space.
 
kwired said:
Do I understand correctly? Your questioned area is floor that is 1' x 3' rectangular area. One three foot side is fixed window, the other 3 foot side is your typical wall like plaster, drywall, etc. and the 1 foot sides are open space.
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Exactly - this 7' of linear wall line - to include the other 9' of window, and the rest of the new wall.

By the 'wording of the code' - it is counted correct?

The discresion of the individual inspector on what they might let slide is a different question...
 
e57 said:
Exactly - this 7' of linear wall line - to include the other 9' of window, and the rest of the new wall.

By the 'wording of the code' - it is counted correct?

The discresion of the individual inspector on what they might let slide is a different question...
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IMO, it is all counted as no break in wall space (assuming the 1' section is a wall; can't tell from drawing).
 
PS: The question I have always had in the back of my mind, and never asked: is measuring along the floor line restricted to along the wall?

The Code does not say along the wall space [at the floor line], it just says along the floor line. In my mind, that just says you drop a plumb line to the floor to obtain measuring points, and the distance can be, as is said, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

For example, say you had a receptacle 6' from a [right-angle] corner. Does the next closest receptacle around the corner have to be at or within 6' from the corner, or can one measure diagonally along the floor line in measuring the 12'... and put a receptacle, say, 8' from the corner, which would be 10' distance diagonally???
 
I cannot tell from the drawing either but a 12' floor to ceiling window is considered wall space. A floor outlet would be required, IMO.
 
e57 said:
Exactly - this 7' of linear wall line - to include the other 9' of window, and the rest of the new wall.

By the 'wording of the code' - it is counted correct?

The discresion of the individual inspector on what they might let slide is a different question...
Click to expand...

something that needs consideration may be whether or not the space is a space mentioned in 210.52(A). You only have a 3 square foot space there many would consider it a closet. There are closets that do not have doors on them so don't argue that it needs a door to be a closet. That said you still have 9 feet of window that fits the description of needing a receptacle within the first 6 feet. Sounds like a place to install a floor outlet.

If you do determine that this space is not a closet it is only 1 foot wide, placing a floor receptacle within 18 inches of the 1 foot back wall covers the whole space plus 12 linear feet around corners each way.
 
I think that the 3 foot wide section of newly built "thing that sort of looks like a wall" does count as "wall space," in the context of 210.52. To be clear, I am only talking about the space located below the words "Questioned area" in your sketch. In order to satisfy the requirement for receptacle outlets in wall spaces, I submit that you could place a receptacle at the point in your sketch at which your arrow (that begins at the words "new walls") touches the new wall. The new receptacle could be as far as 3 feet from the corner of the new wall.

All that said, I also submit that the floor to ceiling window is not, in fact, a "wall space," in the context of 210.52. I believe this has been debated before, and I seem to recall that very few members agreed with me. My reasoning is that, (1) You don't count anything as "wall space," if it is not, in the first instance, a "wall," and that (2) The window counts as a "similar opening" that breaks the wall space at the floor line. But if anyone wishes to open that debate again, let's do it in a separate thread, so we don't hijack this one.
 
charlie b said:
I think that the 3 foot wide section of newly built "thing that sort of looks like a wall" does count as "wall space," in the context of 210.52. To be clear, I am only talking about the space located below the words "Questioned area" in your sketch. In order to satisfy the requirement for receptacle outlets in wall spaces, I submit that you could place a receptacle at the point in your sketch at which your arrow (that begins at the words "new walls") touches the new wall. The new receptacle could be as far as 3 feet from the corner of the new wall.

All that said, I also submit that the floor to ceiling window is not, in fact, a "wall space," in the context of 210.52. I believe this has been debated before, and I seem to recall that very few members agreed with me. My reasoning is that, (1) You don't count anything as "wall space," if it is not, in the first instance, a "wall," and that (2) The window counts as a "similar opening" that breaks the wall space at the floor line. But if anyone wishes to open that debate again, let's do it in a separate thread, so we don't hijack this one.
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Why is fixed window any different than fixed panel of a patio door, that is considered part of the measured wall/floor line? If it is stationary what else is needed to qualify it as a wall for the purpose of 210.52? A wall can be many things besides bricks or drywall. If it were something that opened I would be more willing to entertain the idea it is not same as a wall as far as 210.52 goes. Not trying to hijack thread with an off topic but this is content that is questionable in the OP therefore I don't see it as off topic.
 
Lets see if I can clarify the sketch...


wall space.jpg


The does it count? And would you count it? Are two different things - Does it count - IMO 100% it does... Would/should are something for the AHJ to decide IMO - and at thier descretion. The space is obviously not 'usable', but the code doesnt make that distinction in a permissive way - does it?
 
kwired said:
Why is fixed window any different than fixed panel of a patio door, that is considered part of the measured wall/floor line? If it is stationary what else is needed to qualify it as a wall for the purpose of 210.52? A wall can be many things besides bricks or drywall. If it were something that opened I would be more willing to entertain the idea it is not same as a wall as far as 210.52 goes. Not trying to hijack thread with an off topic but this is content that is questionable in the OP therefore I don't see it as off topic.
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The "wall space" can even be defined as "railing"...... Fixed windows are are also panels of 'exterior walls'....

My point here and with this topic is that despite what you might 'feel' is wall space - the letter of of the code may divert from common sense. But who is to say? The AHJ IMO is who... And technically that falls on the emotion or mood of the inspector - not the letter of the law so to speak...

Does it count - yes - it does....
Should it? IMO CYA....
 
e57 said:
Lets see if I can clarify the sketch...
Click to expand...
Please clarify it one step further.
  • Are you taking about the blue shaded (steel) area to the left of the words, "Questioned area"?
  • Are you taking about the blue shaded (drywall) area below the words, "Questioned area"?
  • Are you taking about the unshaded (glass) area above the words, "Questioned area"?
 
Smart $ said:
PS: The question I have always had in the back of my mind, and never asked: is measuring along the floor line restricted to along the wall?

The Code does not say along the wall space [at the floor line], it just says along the floor line. In my mind, that just says you drop a plumb line to the floor to obtain measuring points, and the distance can be, as is said, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

For example, say you had a receptacle 6' from a [right-angle] corner. Does the next closest receptacle around the corner have to be at or within 6' from the corner, or can one measure diagonally along the floor line in measuring the 12'... and put a receptacle, say, 8' from the corner, which would be 10' distance diagonally???
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I guess one could argue that the floor must be usable as floor, i.e. you could stand or put something there - but that type of split hair of along the floor line - would require a 'line' per say defining the floor - that happens at walls, or openings. What 'line' could be defined across the floor? And who defines that?

In this case flooring will fill that space, and some poor slob gets to finish the walls back there - right down to the floor line.... at the window (wall), steel window support (wall), and base-board of the gyp walls...
 
charlie b said:
Please clarify it one step further.
  • Are you taking about the blue shaded (steel) area to the left of the words, "Questioned area"?
  • Are you taking about the blue shaded (drywall) area below the words, "Questioned area"?
  • Are you taking about the unshaded (glass) area above the words, "Questioned area"?
Click to expand...
Yes....
 
Like I said earlier - why can't this space be a closet? If it is then you need a receptacle 6 feet each way from the opening.

No matter how you look at it the window wall needs a receptacle someplace, which is one of the bigger challenges of the whole thing.
 
charlie b said:
Please clarify it one step further.
Click to expand...
charlie b said:
  • Are you taking about the blue shaded (steel) area to the left of the words, "Questioned area"?
  • Are you taking about the blue shaded (drywall) area below the words, "Questioned area"?
  • Are you taking about the unshaded (glass) area above the words, "Questioned area"?
Click to expand...
e57 said:
Yes....
Click to expand...
In that case, I would count the two blue shaded areas as "wall space," in the context of 210.52, and I would deal with them by putting one receptacle where your arrow is pointing to the "new wall." I would not count the unshaded (glass) area at all, as I have said before. But if you choose to count that area, then it can be addressed with one floor receptacle no more than three feet to the right of the upper right corner of the blue shaded section of drywall.
 
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