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yes, I would pull a 12/3 and also put kit. on gfi.
Charlie threw in the gfi., so I threw in the bedroom archfault; to show what we do and what we have to do can/could be very differant.
 
480sparky said:
210.8 is the GFCI requirement. 406 only requires the recep be grounded.
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Yeah, Ken. But somewhere I thought I read or misread that when replacing an outlet, if in an area that now requires GFI, a GFI recep or protection is required. As I said earlier, I don't have my code book. If I'm wrong, I gaurantee it's not the 1st. time.:)
 
Interesting.
I have worked in many different cities in the west and all have said if you remove a outlet that was not originally required to be GFCI then newly installed one needs to comply. The first thing that the inspectors check in a kitchen remodel is the GFCI's. If you left the old crappy ones then they have no gripe. If you installed nice new clean ones then you need to pony up.

As far as the HVL this is new what was there before was a Heat lamp unit. I am sure it did consume 1460 watts. So I don't really see how you can add such a device to a existing circuit.

By the way this paticular job required the addition of a recept outlet on the other side of the sink. Of course that would require a new 20 amp would't it?
 
rcarroll said:
Yes, now the question, if you pull a new homerun, can you put the new recep on the same ckt as the new h/v/l, if the ckt does not leave the bathroom?
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but why would you !
look at 210.23(a) (1) It clearly says you cannot. The HVL is a piece of utilization equipment as defined by the NEC. The HVL was not an original installed unit.

Now the weird thing is how practicle would it be to leave the one recept alone and the new one GFCI'd

I have seen exactly that.
Remember all the drywall was removed.
 
rcarroll said:
Yeah, Ken. But somewhere I thought I read or misread that when replacing an outlet, if in an area that now requires GFI, a GFI recep or protection is required. As I said earlier, I don't have my code book. If I'm wrong, I gaurantee it's not the 1st. time.:)
Click to expand...

406 doesn't deal with required GFCI protection for kitchens & baths, that's back in 210.8.

406, when replacing receptacles, either requires they be grounded, or replaced with a 2-slot, or be GFCI-protected with a label.
 
Sierrasparky said:
but why would you !
look at 210.23(a) (1) It clearly says you cannot. The HVL is a piece of utilization equipment as defined by the NEC. The HVL was not an original installed unit.

Now the weird thing is how practicle would it be to leave the one recept alone and the new one GFCI'd

I have seen exactly that.
Remember all the drywall was removed.
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I left for a while, pop some bubble wrap, have lunch w/ my mom, & grab my code book.
I wouldn't put the recep & HVL on the same ckt - just asking.
Practical or not, I beleive code will allow it.
As all the drywall is removed, & the HO is willing to pay for any & all upgrades, no problem.
 
480sparky said:
406 doesn't deal with required GFCI protection for kitchens & baths, that's back in 210.8.

406, when replacing receptacles, either requires they be grounded, or replaced with a 2-slot, or be GFCI-protected with a label.
Click to expand...
Yes, i know 210.8 covers GFI.
Help me out w/ this please. 406.3(D) Replacements. (D)(2) GFCI: GFCI protected outletsshall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this code.
Does that mean if there is an unprotected recep in an older kitchen, bathroom, wherever, & you replace the recep, does it have to be repalced w/ a GFCI protected recep.?
 
rcarroll said:
Yes, i know 210.8 covers GFI.
Help me out w/ this please. 406.3(D) Replacements. (D)(2) GFCI: GFCI protected outletsshall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this code.
Does that mean if there is an unprotected recep in an older kitchen, bathroom, wherever, & you replace the recep, does it have to be repalced w/ a GFCI protected recep.?
Click to expand...

I'd say so
 
rcarroll said:
Yes, i know 210.8 covers GFI.
Help me out w/ this please. 406.3(D) Replacements. (D)(2) GFCI: GFCI protected outletsshall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this code.
Does that mean if there is an unprotected recep in an older kitchen, bathroom, wherever, & you replace the recep, does it have to be repalced w/ a GFCI protected recep.?
Click to expand...

No, I'd say 210.8 says to replace it with GFI protection.

406.3(D) is for replacing receptacles where there's no grounding conductor.
 
480sparky said:
No, I'd say 210.8 says to replace it with GFI protection.

406.3(D) is for replacing receptacles where there's no grounding conductor.
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Sorry, I have to disagree.
210.8 GFCI Protection
406.3(D) Replacements
406.3(D)(1) Grounding type receps.
(D)(2) GFCI
(D)(3) Non-grounding type receps.

The way I read it, right or wrong, 210.8 tells us where required.
406.3(D) is for replacement receps. grounded or not.
 
rcarroll said:
Sorry, I have to disagree.
210.8 GFCI Protection
406.3(D) Replacements
406.3(D)(1) Grounding type receps.
(D)(2) GFCI
(D)(3) Non-grounding type receps.

The way I read it, right or wrong, 210.8 tells us where required.
406.3(D) is for replacement receps. grounded or not.
Click to expand...

I gotcha. I'm just thinking of replacing receps where there's no ground. Even if there is, 406.3(D)(2) requires a Giffy if the location requires it.
 
rcarroll said:
I left for a while, pop some bubble wrap, have lunch w/ my mom, & grab my code book.
I wouldn't put the recep & HVL on the same ckt - just asking.
Practical or not, I beleive code will allow it.
As all the drywall is removed, & the HO is willing to pay for any & all upgrades, no problem.
Click to expand...

The way I see it installing the new circuit per code is not an upgrade but a requirement. This should have been known to all parties before the drywall was demoed. A simple flip of the breakers is all it would take. The OP states a heat lamp was all that existed before. A heat lamp is far from a 1400 watt load of heater.
Tough for the cheapo for not doing his job
 
480sparky said:
I gotcha. I'm just thinking of replacing receps where there's no ground. Even if there is, 406.3(D)(2) requires a Giffy if the location requires it.
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I agree
I just looked at 406 (D) (2) myslef. looks like all those feel that they don't nee to comply are flat out busted. Besides GFCI are commonplace. Why would you not install one. It's the code! Charge for it!
 
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