Seven Deadly Sins of Grounding

[iceworm]

Everybody has an opinion when it comes to grounding. When you get tired of the conjecture and old wives tales, listen to Mike Holt. Case closed, the topic no longer in question...

I would go with Soares Grounding and Bonding. I think IAEI owns the copyright these days.

 

[Gary11734]

I would go with Soares Grounding and Bonding. I think IAEI owns the copyright these days.

All I need to do these days if an inspector has a problem with an install; Show a graphic of Mike Holts books. If that doesn't do it, give the guy what he/she wants and go on to the next project.

I care more about passing inspections and plant my flag on something that is more important.

 

[iceworm]

All I need to do these days if an inspector has a problem with an install; Show a graphic of Mike Holts books. If that doesn't do it, give the guy what he/she wants and go on to the next project.

I care more about passing inspections and plant my flag on something that is more important.

Great business plan. But nothing to do with what I said.

 

[kwired]

Great business plan. But nothing to do with what I said.

I agree, and inspectors are human and can be wrong sometimes. I'm not just going to do what they say if I think they are wrong, especially if I think it creates a hazard. Though I seem to run into them wanting overkill more often than creating something that is a hazard.

 

[Gary11734]

I agree, and inspectors are human and can be wrong sometimes. I'm not just going to do what they say if I think they are wrong, especially if I think it creates a hazard. Though I seem to run into them wanting overkill more often than creating something that is a hazard.

So, you have inspectors that are doing un-safe inspections? If I do it per Mike Holt and the inspector wants to do something that is going to kill someone, well, we have a big problem here. What do you consider, 'wrong'? Unsafe, or stupid interpretation of the NEC?

 

[romex jockey]

I'm an IAEI certified inspector, that and a dime gets me a cuppa joe.

Reading articles like this makes me wonder if the OP's contingent would place thier rep on the line.

~RJ~

 

[roger]

So, you have inspectors that are doing un-safe inspections?

Very possible.

If I do it per Mike Holt and the inspector wants to do something that is going to kill someone, well, we have a big problem here.

As long as you're doing it to code and the inspector is wanting you to do something wrong, we do in fact have a problem.

What do you consider, 'wrong'? Unsafe, or stupid interpretation of the NEC?

Believe me, there are inspectors that are way off base and with that being the case, your license is still in jeopardy if something goes wrong.

Roger

 

[kwired]

So, you have inspectors that are doing un-safe inspections? If I do it per Mike Holt and the inspector wants to do something that is going to kill someone, well, we have a big problem here. What do you consider, 'wrong'? Unsafe, or stupid interpretation of the NEC?

I didn't say I ordinarily run into this problem, I did say they sometimes are overkill on some things though. But if you hang around here long enough there are a lot of stories about inspectors that don't have a clue - my reply basically was if they are demanding something that I feel is unsafe I am going to stand up for what I think is right. If we can't come to an agreement after reading applicable code, his supervisor gets a call and is involved. They are human and no human is perfect no matter how much they think they are.

 

[mopowr steve]

The problem with grounding “earthing” is that not all possibilities of problems are safely resolved.

Take for example, I had a call about someone receiving a shock/tingling in their shower.
I began the trouble shooting by individually turning breakers off. To no avail none of them removed the voltage I read between the shower head and drain. Panel grounding was done properly.
Meanwhile the possibility dawned on me that while I sat in my van waiting for the owner to show up and let me in that morning I noticed across the street a home with the power companies neutral had come unattached to the service of that home. I called it in to report it to the POCO and when they showed up I showed them the issues I also were having. Needless to say after they made repair to the neighbors house across the street the issue went away.
So, power from the neighbors home energized the domestic water pipe (which my job was also tied to ) energizing the water lines in my job and when a person was in the shower felt a tingle between the faucet and drain. Note that the drain once enough water flowed down it created a better grounding path for current to flow back to transformer.
Any how think how close to a deadly event something like that could be in the name of “grounding”

 

[Fulthrotl]

What do you all think of this? Everything the NEC requires this guy rejects...

http://www.esgroundingsolutions.com...mmon-electrical-grounding-design-mistakes.pdf

well, he really does not offer specific instructions. just saying "no" without an answer is BS.

i bet there is a magic agenda to something he does promote, that he makes money on.
that is usually how these things go.

last week, i dropped off some erico bentonite for some ground rods to be used in a rock quarry.
they will gun drill with the blasting drill 8' deep, drop in a ground rod, and slurry it up with
bentonite.

that is as good as it'll get in that situation.

when you need a super dooper ground, erico chemical grounds are the best thing i've ever seen used.

https://www.erico.com/part.asp?part=ECRH082C4U

he probably would say that won't work, either.

 

[drcampbell]

... the power companies neutral had come unattached to the service of that home. ... power from the neighbors home energized the domestic water pipe ...

Did you ever figure out how the showerhead and the drain were energized to different potentials?

The more I hear about events like this, and the more plastic pipe that gets installed, (particularly in old work where some metal pipe remains) the more I think an equipotential grid and periodic testing ought to be required.

 

[Gary11734]

I didn't say I ordinarily run into this problem, I did say they sometimes are overkill on some things though. But if you hang around here long enough there are a lot of stories about inspectors that don't have a clue - my reply basically was if they are demanding something that I feel is unsafe I am going to stand up for what I think is right. If we can't come to an agreement after reading applicable code, his supervisor gets a call and is involved. They are human and no human is perfect no matter how much they think they are.

Agreed. So, back to the original. Follow Mike Holts book since it won't kill you and hope the Inspector doesn't overkill the project on some non-code
Grounding fetish. I stopped that fight years ago. Now, if it's going to cost me a lot of money, yes, my flag is planted right there!

 

[Tony S]

It’s not just your side of the pond, we have David Cockburn. His books on earthing and bonding have been withdrawn from sale as downright dangerous, he’s been banned from all UK electricians forums and thrown out of the IET.

IET = Institute of Engineering and Technology.

 

[mopowr steve]

Did you ever figure out how the showerhead and the drain were energized to different potentials?

The more I hear about events like this, and the more plastic pipe that gets installed, (particularly in old work where some metal pipe remains) the more I think an equipotential grid and periodic testing ought to be required.

Only that when the nieghbors house had a 120 volt load utilized such as the furnace running, it energized the Grounding electrode in this case the domestic water line. In turn since earth will not carry all current back to transformer anyone else tied to domestic water line also were affected. If I remember correctly I read somewhere around 90 volts from shower valve to drain. Naturally since the drains were isolated from water line there would be a difference in potential.

 

[Adamjamma]

Did you ever figure out how the showerhead and the drain were energized to different potentials?

The more I hear about events like this, and the more plastic pipe that gets installed, (particularly in old work where some metal pipe remains) the more I think an equipotential grid and periodic testing ought to be required.

If one has a ground rod and a ground connection to the rebar and also a water pipe acting as a ground, and you lose any of the three, you still should have a ground as any one of them is suitable on their own as ground. Thus all this bonding we have been required to do is actually helping us. Plus, if one is as anal as I am, one has a group of ground rods around the home bonded to each other and to the antennas and to the rebar, so should never be concerned about what happens if the water pipe is replaced with plastic...

 

[kwired]

Only that when the nieghbors house had a 120 volt load utilized such as the furnace running, it energized the Grounding electrode in this case the domestic water line. In turn since earth will not carry all current back to transformer anyone else tied to domestic water line also were affected. If I remember correctly I read somewhere around 90 volts from shower valve to drain. Naturally since the drains were isolated from water line there would be a difference in potential.

If you just had 2 or 3 volts, that would likely be basic voltage drop in the conductor, if you have 90 volts the problematic resistance is in a common path that you and the neighbor were both connected to.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

You should read some of the PIs that group submitted for the 2020 code. They hold themselves out as grounding experts, but much of what I have read from them is not close to being code compliant. I don't even bother reading any of their stuff any more.

 

[NTesla76]

I don't mean to pick apart the article, but it is the National Electrical Code, not National Electric Code.

 

[LarryFine]

Shocking! hmy:

 

[topgone]

Nothing is shocking at all!
It's just another whitepaper (a government or other report giving information/ proposals on an issue) which needs to be either accepted or downright rejected. Methinks the latter is more appropriate for that.