Several arc fault breakers in panels

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earshavewalls

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We have a condition at a new Motel with arc fault breakers and heat. The electrical engineer is insisting on using arc fault breakers for all guest rooms, even though these rooms do not have permanent provisions for cooking. With the high number of arc fault breakers in these panels, a great deal of heat is being generated. This is concerning us as to fire, life expectancy of the equipment, and other potential problems with this.
With the 2008 NEC looking at requiring ALL circuits (other than GFCI) to have this protection, the number of these breakers within panels will go up dramatically.
Has anyone done any studies on this? Is the issue of heat dissipation being discussed? We have informed the engineer that these are not required by code, but this individual is insisting on leaving them in place.
I have heard of methods, such as spacing the arc fault breakers so that they are not adjacent to each other, but this is not possible in our case, because of the volume/number of these breakers within the 42 circuit panels.
Any information or ideas would be appreciated.
 
When the AFCIs came into the 2002 NEC, we had a seperate topic just for AFCIs, the moderator was the product manager for Cutler Hammer.

We got a lot of questions initially, then less and less, and I haven't answered an AFCI question in a long time.

I don't belive heat will be an issue. However, most panels only have a few AFCIs. Keep in mind the 2008 NEC will remove the 42 circuit limit in a panel.

AFCIs are only required for dwelling units.
 
The temperature on the uppermost breakers is up to 140F+ in small electrical rooms. The panels contain ONLY arc fault breakers. These are actually heating up the room and the heat within the panels is not able to be dissipated. Rooms are off of a rated corridor and within one-hour enclosures.
As I stated in my original post, these breakers ARE NOT required by code, however, the engineer of record for the electrical design is insisting on these breakers remaining. We are simply searching for any information on how to reduce the heating or possibly find an alternative to this problem.
One other note, all of the arc fault breakers are two-pole with multi-wire circuits serving the units. The panel and breakers appear to be installed per code and the manufacturer's installation instructions, we just do not feel comfortable with the amount of heat being put off.
 
tom baker said:
I don't belive heat will be an issue. However, most panels only have a few AFCIs. Keep in mind the 2008 NEC will remove the 42 circuit limit in a panel.

AFCIs are only required for dwelling units.
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In 2008 the majority of the breakers in a dwelling panel will be AFCI. If earshavewalls is correct about the heat buildup in the panels, we'll need extra large panels to space-out the breakers. You'd need 40 spaces for 20 breakers. Maybe we'll need small box fans installed too. It's getting crazy out there.:confused:
 
yanici said:
In 2008 the majority of the breakers in a dwelling panel will be AFCI. If earshavewalls is correct about the heat buildup in the panels, we'll need extra large panels to space-out the breakers. You'd need 40 spaces for 20 breakers. Maybe we'll need small box fans installed too. It's getting crazy out there.:confused:
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Lots of sub panels is in order.
 
yanici said:
In 2008 the majority of the breakers in a dwelling panel will be AFCI. If earshavewalls is correct about the heat buildup in the panels, we'll need extra large panels to space-out the breakers. You'd need 40 spaces for 20 breakers. Maybe we'll need small box fans installed too. It's getting crazy out there.:confused:
Dennis Alwon said:
Lots of sub panels is in order.
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...or not...

tom baker said:
Keep in mind the 2008 NEC will remove the 42 circuit limit in a panel.
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Is there a 120/240V resi. panel that is 42ckt?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Yep, most seem to be 40 but some ML panels are 42.
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I can't say as I can recall ever seeing a single phase 42 ckt panel.

These panels that some guys put in with NO spares might then be a problem, no?
(NJ is anti-AFCI - but that may change in '08 - so I have to learn from you guys ~ THANKS)
 
I don't believe spares are required, however that's is why I suggest sub panels. The homes we are doing around here are always large. 20 years ago a 2500 sq. ft house was considered large, today I haven't done one under 4000 sq. feet in ages. Sub panels are really efficient when you have a two story house---for future use and to shorten the length of the circuits.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Sub panels are really efficient when you have a two story house---for future use and to shorten the length of the circuits.
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Yeah, and with a panel on each level full of AFCI's you'd have two zone heat.:grin: :grin:
 
tom baker said:
I don't belive heat will be an issue.
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IIRC, CH specifically recommends NOT putting AFCI breakers next to one another because of the heat. That's fine at the moment, but as this thread demonstrates this WILL be a probem when AFCIs are mandated for residential use in 2008. Are you all going to put in twice as many panels so you can leave every other space empty?

Yet another unintended consequence.
 
Mike03a3 said:
Are you all going to put in twice as many panels so you can leave every other space empty?

Yet another unintended consequence.
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If you are wise you might consider doing just that--- and no more small sub panels either--- 40 cir. ones may be the way to go.
 
In spite of the contrary language between 90.1(B) and 90.8(A) [Just my opinion] I don't believe spare spaces in panels are a requirement....

...my previous question was more less "fishing for answrs" in regards to this comment:
yanici said:
If earshavewalls is correct about the heat buildup in the panels, we'll need extra large panels to space-out the breakers. You'd need 40 spaces for 20 breakers.
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If and when NJ adapts 210.12 ~ I want to be ahead of the herd.
 
It doesn't seem right that the consumer has to pay for a half empty panel. Would you pay for a full tank of gas and only be allowed to use half of it? This is bull****.:mad:
 
The way I see it yes we will need larger panels for that purpose. We will have many cir. that won't be arc fault aslo so they would fill the gap. We always seem to have a bunch of 220 circuits in out houses so we can fill the gap in some areas.

I believe the manufacturers are going to need to make the arc faults with less heat output-- don't know if this is possible or not but I am planning extra panels to deal with this issue.
 
yanici said:
It doesn't seem right that the consumer has to pay for a half empty panel. Would you pay for a full tank of gas and only be allowed to use half of it? This is bull****.:mad:
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It may be BS but do you want to go back every day and deal with nuisance tripping issues. Not I.....:grin: :D :D
 
It's manufacturers design problem. If it ain't ready to sell to the public, don't.

What's the big hurry-up over this issue? They're forcing an item on the market before it's perfected IMO.
 
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