Shed - Power NEC

[LarryFine]

With the 2 pole switch, obviously it doesn’t disconnect the grounded(neutral).

No need to. Just join the incoming and two outgoing neutrals together.

 

[TRMElectricianJourneyman]

No need to. Just join the incoming and two outgoing neutrals together.

No need to simultaneously disconnect? 225.38 makes it sound like i need to

 

[LarryFine]

No need to simultaneously disconnect? 225.38 makes it sound like i need to View attachment 2567917

A simple wire-nut will suffice. The simultaneous operation is if you choose to switch the neutral.

 

[jap]

A simple wire-nut will suffice. The simultaneous operation is if you choose to switch the neutral.

Where do you see that in the rule?

Although true if that may happen to be the case, the rule doesn't mentions that.

The simultaneous operation applies to all "Ungrounded" conductors.

JAP>

 

[winnie]

Simultaneous disconnection of the neutral is not in article 225. 225.38 says you need to have a way to disconnect the neutral, but it doesn't have to be a switch. I'm trying to figure out if bus bar with pressure connector includes a lug with a set screw

But if you have a _switch_ used to disconnect the neutral (including a circuit breaker) you need to see the requirements in article 404 or article 250 regarding switching the neutral. You will find simultaneous disconnection requirements there.

-Jon

 

[jap]

Simultaneous disconnection of the neutral is not in article 225. 225.38 says you need to have a way to disconnect the neutral, but it doesn't have to be a switch. I'm trying to figure out if bus bar with pressure connector includes a lug with a set screw

But if you have a _switch_ used to disconnect the neutral (including a circuit breaker) you need to see the requirements in article 404 or article 250 regarding switching the neutral. You will find simultaneous disconnection requirements there.

-Jon

I think this is exactly what it's referring to.

JAP>

 

[LarryFine]

Where do you see that in the rule?

Although true if that may happen to be the case, the rule doesn't mentions that.

The simultaneous operation applies to all "Ungrounded" conductors.

It may not be stated here. I was addressing the question I was asked.

Do you disagree with my assertion that, if the grounded conductor is switched, the ungrounded conductors must open simultaneously?

 

[jap]

It may not be stated here. I was addressing the question I was asked.

Do you disagree with my assertion that, if the grounded conductor is switched, the ungrounded conductors must open simultaneously?

I don't disagree at all.

It seemed the OP felt he needed to open the neutral which is rarely the case.

JAP>

 

[LarryFine]

It seemed the OP felt he needed to open the neutral which is rarely the case.

That is exactly what my statement was in response to: the simultaneous requirement not including the neutral.

 

[jap]

That is exactly what my statement was in response to: the simultaneous requirement not including the neutral.

I simply saying you don't really ever "choose" to open a neutral.

Generally the opening of a Neutral is determined by a requirement.

JAP>

 

[TRMElectricianJourneyman]

I don't disagree at all.

It seemed the OP felt he needed to open the neutral which is rarely the case.

JAP>

225.38(C) makes it sound like we need to open the neutral simultaneously with the ungrounded. I'm hoping a wire nut will be acceptable, since the process of disconnecting a wire nut and popping a compression terminal take roughly the same amount of time...?? Right? When I flip the disconnect, I'm definitely not opening the disconnect box and popping the neutral as well...hahaha. It'll bug me until the inspector confirms...lol.

Loving all of the feedback and dialogue.

 

[jap]

225.38(C) makes it sound like we need to open the neutral simultaneously with the ungrounded. I'm hoping a wire nut will be acceptable, since the process of disconnecting a wire nut and popping a compression terminal take roughly the same amount of time...?? Right? When I flip the disconnect, I'm definitely not opening the disconnect box and popping the neutral as well...hahaha. It'll bug me until the inspector confirms...lol.

Loving all of the feedback and dialogue.

No, to the contrary, please don't open the neutral.

JAP>

 

[TRMElectricianJourneyman]

I know not to, but if you read the code, it sounds like they want us to.

225.38 Disconnect Construction
Disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.38(A) through (D).
(C) Disconnection of Grounded Conductor
Where the building or structure disconnecting means does not disconnect the grounded conductor from the grounded conductors in the building or structure wiring, other means shall be provided for this purpose at the location of the disconnecting means. A terminal or bus to which all grounded conductors can be attached by means of pressure connectors shall be permitted for this purpose.

 

[jap]

If your inspector considers a wirenut a "terminal" you're in good shape.

Although it is a pressure connector, I myself wouldn't consider it a "terminal".

That's why I use a cheep 8 dollar AC Pullout and mount a small insulated Neutral bar in it but that's just me.

I like to be able to read the voltage in a disconnect to the neutral bar and not have to probe a wirenut.

JAP>

 

[jap]

That's also why I don't see how some get away with using a toggle switch as a disconnecting means for a structure.

In that scenario you are wire nutting the neutral in the switch box.

Although you could use the toggle switch as a disconnecting means beyond that because the switch is not being used as the disconnect for the structure.

Jap>

 

[TRMElectricianJourneyman]

That's also why I don't see how some get away with using a toggle switch as a disconnecting means for a structure.

In that scenario you are wire nutting the neutral in the switch box.

Although you could use the toggle switch as a disconnecting means beyond that because the switch is not being used as the disconnect for the structure.

Jap>

I was surprised to see the "general-use switch" listed as an approved means in 225.36. Didn't seem correct, but as long as it's labeled properly, it's really no different than an actual disconnect; just a smaller scale.

 

[jap]

I was surprised to see the "general-use switch" listed as an approved means in 225.36. Didn't seem correct, but as long as it's labeled properly, it's really no different than an actual disconnect; just a smaller scale.

I may have worded myself wrong previously.

It's not the disconnecting of the "ungrounded" conductors that are the issue.

It's the terminations the "grounded" conductor is what makes the difference.

Kind of hard to put an insulated neutral bar for your neutrals to land on in a switch box.

JAP>

 

[letgomywago]

Maybe not in your soil, but try it in hard clay scattered with rocks!
I don't know why some keep saying add a subpanel, the OP clearly said there were only two circuits. Also the customer didn't want to spend much. No use adding the ground rods if you don't have to. I also believe the OP has settled on the MWBC.

I'm from the east side of WA my soil is basalt. You just need to go at 45 and use a driver. Maybe 30 min tops for 2 ground rods if you so like you can use a plate.