Should the breaker trip

Status
Not open for further replies.
K

KasseemF

Member
Recently in my country and child fell on an extension chord plugged into a well pump on the exterior and got electrocuted.

Should the 20A circuit breaker have tripped?

In doing checks I noted that the hot and neutral were revered in the outlet and a GFCI outlet was not used, could this have played a factoring the electrocution?

The plug for the pump also had a short between hot and neutral, how would this have played a factor.
 
KasseemF said:
Recently in my country and child fell on an extension chord plugged into a well pump on the exterior and got electrocuted.

Should the 20A circuit breaker have tripped?

In doing checks I noted that the hot and neutral were revered in the outlet and a GFCI outlet was not used, could this have played a factoring the electrocution?

The plug for the pump also had a short between hot and neutral, how would this have played a factor.
Click to expand...
A lot more details are necessary to answer most of what you ask about.

Just falling on the cord doesn't give us any information on what/where voltage potentials existed, there wouldn't be no eletcrocution if the victim isn't exposed to voltage potential. A general purpose 20 amp circuit breaker will not trip at the low current levels that can electrocute a person. GFCI's are intended to prevent electrocutions, but the question becomes what happened, was GFCI required, and what other things were not up to codes that may have prevented this incident.
 
It takes less than an amp to kill a person - the 20A breaker is there to protect equipment, not people from shocks. A GFCI at the source would likely have prevented the accident. Perhaps the cord was damaged or wet? How did you determine that the pump was shorted? If it was, in fact "shorted," the breaker should have tripped, but note that motor windings often have low DC resistances that don't indicate a short circuit.
 
lazorko said:
It takes less than an amp to kill a person - the 20A breaker is there to protect equipment, not people from shocks. A GFCI at the source would likely have prevented the accident. Perhaps the cord was damaged or wet? How did you determine that the pump was shorted? If it was, in fact "shorted," the breaker should have tripped, but note that motor windings often have low DC resistances that don't indicate a short circuit.
Click to expand...
The trip threshold for a GFCI is 6mA, so .006A, the accepted threshold here for risk to human health and life and must open the circuit in 1/4 second. In countries outside of North America that threshold is 30mA, so .03A (don't ask me why). The point is however that by the time a 20A circuit breaker trips (which by the way is WELL above 20A), the human that is completing the circuit has suffered irreparable organ damage even if not yet dead.
 
Jraef said:
The trip threshold for a GFCI is 6mA, so .006A, the accepted threshold here for risk to human health and life and must open the circuit in 1/4 second. ....
Click to expand...

While the GFCI will often open the circuit that quickly, it is not required to do so by the standard that covers GFCIs. In fact for the 6mA fault the GFCI is permitted to take up to 5.59 seconds before it opens.
The standard says the maximum permitted time to trip in seconds is equal to the quantity (20/fault current in milliamps) raised to the 1.43 power.
 
were electrical codes followed?

were electrical codes followed?

It was beaten into my head at the age of 15 when I began to learn electrical work that :

1,ALL electrical installations must be electrically and mechanically sound following the countries codes and regulations normally most places use the NEC codes
2,All kitchen,bathroom,garage and outdoor outlets must be GFCI

i am telling you that cord was defective probably with frays on it.
 
Just to also add a few points from a wiring manufacturers persecutive (if I was one of course;)

The CB (or fuse) is their to protect the building wiring from Overload, Short-Circuit, and Ground-Fault. They would not have detected this condition as stated by the OP, as well noted by our fine members. The misconception of an OCPD (fuse or CB) is that it is to protect the equipment to which the building wiring is connected too, other than electrical equipment to which "conductors" fall into such a category. What is important is that we get a chance to see yet another REAL example of how a GFCI (which not perfect and 100% affective in all cases) could have saved this child's life.

A standard Circuit Breaker is simply a unsophisticated device that looks for either a magnetic or/and thermal component to it's internal operation, for the aforementioned conditions to which I already expressed. A GFCI equipped OCPD or Receptacle type device would raise the level of protection on this circuit. However, lets keep in mind that GFCI devices (CB or Outlet) can be fooled if a direct connection is made from the grounded to the ungrounded conductor in such a way that the "object" is assumed by the circuit as simply a load. So while GFCI devices do save lives and should ALWAYS be used where directed by the NEC (and other areas if applicable to your level of concern=over and above the minimum code standards) lets never forget they are not perfect...but it's the best we have to aid in preventing such incidents as the OP presented.

Ok...i'm over that now..on to other topics;)
 
MasterTheNEC said:
However, lets keep in mind that GFCI devices (CB or Outlet) can be fooled if a direct connection is made from the grounded to the ungrounded conductor in such a way that the "object" is assumed by the circuit as simply a load.
Click to expand...
Yet they are quite effective at saving people because very seldom is a person subjected to "line to line" voltage only, you have to give it a little effort in most cases to get directly in line with two circuit conductors and on top of that you need to be otherwise isolated from ground or you still get some current to ground.
 
KasseemF said:
Recently in my country and child fell on an extension chord plugged into a well pump on the exterior and got electrocuted.

Should the 20A circuit breaker have tripped?

In doing checks I noted that the hot and neutral were revered in the outlet and a GFCI outlet was not used, could this have played a factoring the electrocution?

The plug for the pump also had a short between hot and neutral, how would this have played a factor.
Click to expand...

If there was a short between hot and neutral, the electrocution could not have happened as the 20A circuit breaker would have tripped in the first place. So what was missing?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top