Show Windows

[Psychlo]

It seems to me that, according to Article 100, a show window could be any window that had an advertisment attached to it -- even on a store front. I don't think that was the intention of the authors, but, by its strict wording, one would wonder if this could be interpreted to require a receptacle every 12 feet along the front of a supermarket or retail store (210.62). Is it really that broad?

 

[iwire]

a show window could be any window that had an advertisment attached to it -- even on a store front.

I think that was exactly the intent.

Small individual windows could also be show windows.

By definition this is a 'show window'

 

[charlie b]

I don?t think so. I envision a ?show window? as meaning an area that has dedicated floor space (i.e., separate from walk ways or merchandise shelves), at least a foot or two deep, that the merchant would use to set up shop displays. If a passerby looked into the window and saw sample merchandise, with shelves containing the bulk of the merchandise further back into the store, then it is a ?show window.? On the other hand, if the passerby just saw the shelves of merchandise, with no apparent room just inside the window for special displays, then it is not a ?show window.?

But that, of course, is just my own opinion. I?d like to hear what the Inspectors among us think about this question.

 

[iwire]

Charlie, Did you even take a glance at the Article 100 definition of "Show window"? It specifically addresses the construction of the window.

'Any window used or designed to be used for the display of goods or advertising material..' it goes on, it's worth a look.

 

[charlie b]

It?s not that easy, Bob. If you are building a new store, and the plans call for a window in front, do you know if the owner plans to put an electric sign in that window? My point is that if the plans show a space next to the window, a space that is obviously useable for a window display, and that is just as obviously useless for any other purpose, then that is certainly a show window. But if the plans just show a half-height wall facing the street, with a window above, do you have to put in a receptacle above that window?

I suppose you could, and probably should, just put on in, in case the owner wants to hang a sign some day. But is that what the code requires? I think not. Specifically, if the window is not designed for the display of goods, but rather is simply there to allow a passerby to look into the store itself, I think that would not meet the NEC definition of ?show window.?

 

[celtic]

By definition this is a 'show window'

Do Frat house's count?

 

[iwire]

Well Charlie it's black and white to me.:smile:


'Used or designed to be used'

So it does not have to be designed to be a show window to in fact be an 'NEC Show window'.

'whether it is fully enclosed or partially open or entirely open at the rear'

And it can be at street level or not.

IMO the definition reads to me like they kept adding to it as people could not accept that the NEC is looking for plugs at most retail windows.

Of course that last part is just a WAG.

 

[iwire]

Here is a nice shot I took of a restaurant's front window.

You can see it has the required show window outlet.


Of course it might be safer if they used it for the Neon sign that is hanging in the window. :roll:

Yeah thats tracking from the high voltage running through the wall papers metallic threads to the ceiling grid

 

[Psychlo]

I really appreciate you guys discussing this. I've had the exact same arguments going on in my own mind. What I have to say probably is not worth the whole two cents, but here it is:

The definition reads "whether it is fully or partly enclosed or entirely open at the rear". A normal store front window has no depth. Therefore, it is not fully nor partly enclosed. Furthermore, because it has no depth, it has no "rear". So, to me, it does not fit the description of a show window.

Also, it states "for the display of goods or advertising material". Now, I suppose someone could really get semantical and say that even the paint used as artwork on the glass is considered "material", but I would find that to be a painful stretch. I am thus unconvinced that the original intent of the definition of show window did not include "normal" windows.

What experiences have you had or heard of regarding how inspectors are calling it?

 

[iwire]

The definition reads "whether it is fully or partly enclosed or entirely open at the rear". A normal store front window has no depth.

I agree, but that instance is coved by the 'entirly open 'part.

Remeber that it can be at floor level and be open at the rear.

IMO that describes most store fronts.

Also, it states "for the display of goods or advertising material". Now, I suppose someone could really get semantical and say that even the paint used as artwork on the glass is considered "material", but I would find that to be a painful stretch.

IMO it does specifically mean any form of advertising displayed in the window.

What experiences have you had or heard of regarding how inspectors are calling it?

I have never been shot down for not having them but that is likely because we install them.

The company I work for does a lot of retail both large and small. The receptacles will almost always be on the print and the large chains try to save a penny whereever they can.

 

[charlie b]

Bob, would you agree that no receptacle is needed for a window that is less than 6 feet wide, whether or not it is used for advertising? If not, how small (width) must a window be, before it no longer needs a receptacle?

 

[russ]

I require show window receptacles for every 12 linear feet or major fraction thereof of window space.
Major fraction thereof, to me does not mean at least fifty percent.
I don't think that that part of the paragraph was constructed to describe stand alone windows that are less than 12 feet.

 

[M. D.]

Or major fraction there of ?? Interesting language . 50% or better seems major,...under 50% seems minor .

 

[Cavie]

Is a "show window" circuit to be dedicated to only the show window? As in laundry circuit to have no other outlets?

 

[neonjoe]

Yeah thats tracking from the high voltage running through the wall papers metallic threads to the ceiling grid

I hate to jack the thread, but I have to comment on the pic of the damage caused by the window sign. We call this type of installation a remote transformer. It's a cleaner look than a sign with the transformer attached to the sign body. And when installed correctly will not be a hazard.

To get back on thread, I'll just say that I've had to call in an electrician to install receptacles above windows for signs enough times that I think planning for them is a good decision. Whether it's code or not, that's not my field, so I can't comment.

 

[LarryFine]

I've had the exact same arguments going on in my own mind.

Who's winning?


In a store-front like this, would you say the windows in the entrance recess also count, and require receptacles?

 

[iwire]

Bob, would you agree that no receptacle is needed for a window that is less than 6 feet wide, whether or not it is used for advertising?

Yes, I will agree to that.

Now let me ask this.

If I have 40' of front window made up of eight 5' wide panes of glass separated only by mullions ...

...can I leave the receptacles out?

Lets say this building will be used to as a Bar, a typical location for window advertising.

Are show window outlets required?

Each pane of glass looks to be less than 6'

 

[iwire]

I have to comment on the pic of the damage caused by the window sign. We call this type of installation a remote transformer. It's a cleaner look than a sign with the transformer attached to the sign body. And when installed correctly will not be a hazard.

Unfortunately few are installed correctly.

Rubber cords can not be run above ceilings, the transformer will have to be hardwired and the high voltage cord must be run in a raceway above the ceiling.

 

[russ]

Or major fraction there of ?? Interesting language . 50% or better seems major,...under 50% seems minor .

When the different government body's take their portion of your pay check, (much less than 50%) do you consider those fractions a major portion of your income?

 

[charlie b]

Now let me ask this. If I have 40' of front window made up of eight 5' wide panes of glass separated only by mullions, can I leave the receptacles out?

You seldom get sheets of glass that are over six feet wide. I would say that individual sheets of glass, separated by mullions (thanks for the picture, as I would have had no idea what that word meant) or by wooden slats, can constitute a single window.

And to those who have commented otherwise, please let me state that it is my opinion that in the context of 210.62, ?one half or more? is a ?major fraction,? and ?less than one half? is a ?minor fraction.?