Side Bar of 'Qualified'
- Thread starter tom baker
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iwire said:
iWire, I have to respectfully disagree with this one a bit. With a thorough code exam and a shop test, AND four years of apprenticeship....I would think that a person would in be in NO comparisom to a HO. I agree that there are EC's that doing shoddy work, but in general IMO licensed folks have something way better to offer the consumer in safety. We all dont like government control, but the inosent deserve_________.........Oh I dont want to go there...I'll back off
I've always used this analogy....If, you have a $3000 transmission go out in your car....do you take it to the jack of all trades for half the price, or do you take it to the man with stripes on his shirt for the full price? I know this doesnt represent government control, but I dont want any one messing with something as complicated as this tranny OR my bonding or grounding or whatever....
iwire said:I took these pictures just last Friday while at a service call. This is above the ceiling of a store in RI.
I am sure no DIYs had anything to do with this, it was electrical contractors.
AND where was the inspector that missed ALL of that.......Inspector accountability has a purpose for those yA-hoo's that do that kind of work
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
I would like to know where the reset button went in the contactor I think I see rx running inside the empty contactor.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Mule said:
True, the inspector has a part to play but this work was done by electricians, ones that had licenses, ones that have to take code updates, ones that had to go through four years of apprenticeship.
The fact remains many license holders just don't care .
So lets get off our high horse and put aside this notion that a Govt. issued license is assurance of professional work.
bjp_ne_elec
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern NH
Iwire - in RI, is there anything allowing NM in non-wooden structures, let alone commercial buildings? I know here in NH, NM is allowed in commercial buildings, up to two stories, that are wood construction. Back in NY, NM was not allowed in any commercial building, even if it was wood framed.
Am I seeing it correctly - it looks like some of those wires are SO cord - the black ones. Is that accurate?
Am I seeing it correctly - it looks like some of those wires are SO cord - the black ones. Is that accurate?
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ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Mule said:
IMO State licensing provide contractors important controls; with leans against property sales by delinquent owners, against unlicensed operators competing on the same project, to enforce minimum-code compliance with permits, and by providing a common fraternity against unlicensed-weekend warriors, on internet-trade forums.
Unfortunately, only 3% of license application data is verified in my State. And, those active licenses that may view permits as municipal-revenue scams --less efficient than self inspection-- must also be considered a more qualified opinion.
For the 19 States that require testing, experience, & bonding, a great deal of people still assume its Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) to use expired, revoked, or license numbers that don't belong to them. And, umbrella-insurance policies don't solve these licensing debacles, since carriers only scrub before paying claims, not before collecting premiums.
In the remaining unlicensed States it is abundantly clear, principal credit/references/trade-association memberships remains the superior indication of contractor solvency.
Further, good contractors can have bad days, or depleted bonds, and bond renewal isn't required for license renewal in my State. So, regardless of State-license scheme, construction consumers must still purchase all material to prevent supplier leans, and pay legal-minimum deposits to control for insolvent, or disappearing contractors.
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ramsy said:
Actually it is. In CA if your bond expires, your contractor's license gets suspended automatically. You may not have to show the bond for your renewal paperwork, but you still need a current bond on file for a current and active license.
Sure, we can go through all the training and licensing, spend countless hours reading forums like this one, magazines, and books with the intent of perfecting our craft. Then we turn on HGTV with the other millions of viewers and learn that electrical wiring is fairly easy and safe to do as long as you turn the power off first. Even the guy down at the Big Orange says so......
- Greg
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
bjp_ne_elec said:
Yes, the NEC.
There is no code rule that forbids NM in "commercial" buildings. But now your would run afoul of 334.12(A)(2).ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Poolside said:
OK, but If you have a current bond, failing to pay the claim against the old bond won't (or shouldn't) affect your CA license.
http://www.contractortalk.com/showpost.php?p=416637&postcount=105
Further, the license itself will not be affected by a Bankruptcy. So my point is both bond and license may in fact misrepresent solvency.
http://www.contractortalk.com/showpost.php?p=377165&postcount=81
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
iwire said:
I am going to agree with Bob here..I have seen all sorts of stuff done by contractors on jobs..I would like a show of hands and be truth full here..
How many of you have done service work and installed a new circuit and not filed an inspection report...now be honest here...
Inspectors have more jobs then they can actually inspect in a day on there clip boards..now they take contractors as pros and give them a little room to roam..so when the contractor has figured out that the inspector is not going to check all the j-box covers in the false ceilings then some covers will not be installed..either by accident or maybe on purpose..
It takes a personal effort on the installers part to make sure every thing is done according to the code and in a professional manner..the field is so big it is my job to make the work I do done in a professional manner..Not the inspectors job..it is his job to make sure it does comply and to keep contractors honest..because they are out there just to make a quick buck..yeppers not everyone but they do exist..
Everyone seems to think that every job that they come across has been inspected and installed by licensed electricians . I think they would be suprised to find out how many are not. Everyone does electrical wiring HVAC people, plumbers , carpenters and homeowners the list can go on. Many people install work after the job has been finaled just to by-pass inspectors. Even contractors that do code complient work.iwire said:
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
petersonra said:
I will admit that I have seen lots of work done by licensed ECs that is not code compliant. But normally the grounds are made and there are connectors used on the cables. Conduit and cables not properly supported is one of the biggest violations that I see.
I have seen very few homeowner or handyman jobs that are even close to safe. One of the things that HOs install are recessed can lights. The first thing you notice is that no connectors are used and grounds not made. The next thing is that wiring is not stapled and is just run from point A to point B. Then there are the box covers that are always left off. If they even buy the correct cable it is a better than average job. I have seen everthing from speaker wire to old extension cords used. Even the use of wire nuts is optional, many times it's just wire twisted and taped. The last thing is the tap for power which is a flying splice that is just taped togather with the ground not made whick now means the whole circuit is not grounded.
It's very rare to see an electrician make all the same mistakes as the homeowner. The work may look like crap but just having done the job many times will insure that certain things are done right.
I can normally look at a job and tell if it was done by a homeowner or hack electrician. Just look for wire nuts, connectors, ground crimps, and check for where they tapped the circuit for power. If I see anything close to six inches of wire at the tap I know that the work was done by some sort of an electrician, if the tap is about 2 inches it was a homeowner ( they always cut the wire as short as they can get it ).
cschmid said:
Well... we all speak from our own experiences and reasoning..but for me and our town we have alot of respectfull contractors IMO, and a hand full of "not so respectfull" contractors making work for the fire department and the hospital. And its the "not so respectfull" ones that should be corrected by a quality inspection process that would protect the public. Society will always have givers and takers, and there will always be individuals that refuse to "fly right" and take pride in their work.
Contractors that are doing their jobs correctly certainly dont need as much correction but in order to be equal, how else would you do it? True, I have done several jobs without permits, in fact, I'm guessing that there are somewhere between 30-40 working electricians in our town that are either EC's or employeed by such. The city records show only an average of 45 permits per month for 2008....so to me the inspection process is really "out of control" much less being "in control"..I probably come close to doing that much work myself.....It just doesnt add up...AND I would bet that most all of those permits issued are resi new construction, not the type of work that iwire shows above the ceiling.
Now iWire....do I still sound like I'm on a "high horse"?
cschmid
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern cold country
Hmm....Mule on a horse now that might be worth watching the video..:grin:
I agree there is alot of good contractors and yes a few bad ones as well..yet it only takes one bad one to stain the whole arena..
I agree there is alot of good contractors and yes a few bad ones as well..yet it only takes one bad one to stain the whole arena..
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
cschmid said:
Many of the contractors that do really shoddy work got their experience working for other contractors that did really shoddy work.
In many states to get a license you are required to have a certain amount of experience but that experience can be working for any licensed contractor and not necessarily a good and competent electrician. I once had a helper that had two years of experience working for his uncle and he was ruined, he had learned nothing but bad habbits. His uncle had obtained his license through the grandfather system and only worked out in the country with very few inspections. In other words the kid had never seen a job that was done right. If the uncle hadn't went out of business the kid would have gotten all his experience working for a hack. Four years of experience and a prep course and he would have been licensed and wouldn't have had the slightest idea how to do a job.
The system is not perfect it's just all we have. It's better than nothing and not near as good as it should be.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
I would not be taking a transmission problem to just any government licensed mechanic. just because he went through the prescribed mechanic apprenticeship does not make him competent to actually work on my transmission.Mule said:
Nor does a guy who changes oil need a 3 year long apprenticeship to learn how to do so.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
I have seen a lot of HO work and never saw any of this. It may be that you see the problem installations.growler said:
I have seen ground wires twisted and no wire nut, but that was a common practice around here for grounds, even by "real" electricians.
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