side stepping arc fault breakers

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Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

This should be a no brainier. Using the 2002 code.

210.3 The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes.

Branch Circuit, Individual. A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment.

Bob Member # 20 pointed this out in the fourth post

No need to look further cause none of the rest matters
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

jw, so are you saying a smoke detector is not utilization equipment?

Roger
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Where I do work the requirements are for one alarm inside the sleeping quarters and one outside. One on each level of the house and all must be interconnected. The alarms must be on a general lighting circuit and can?t be on their own circuit. So with this in mind I will need at least to alarms therefore not an Individual circuit.

Should I ever have the good fortune to inspect a job it would please me to find the alarms on a 10 amp circuit. After returning to the office I would tell my director that I was on my way to paying for a four wheel drive pick-up with a CD player for me to drive.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

jw,

Should I ever have the good fortune to inspect a job it would please me to find the alarms on a 10 amp circuit. After returning to the office I would tell my director that I was on my way to paying for a four wheel drive pick-up with a CD player for me to drive.
Click to expand...
Do your inspectors get incentives for red tags?

Roger

[ January 23, 2005, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

NFPA 72,in fact does call a smoke detector, a device, in definitions.Thanks for the help,JW..Guess you put this whole thread to bed, for me...In key word Device..

[ January 23, 2005, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Their point seems to be that the code only identifies 15 and 20amp circuits,,,,,,,they say since it doesn't say 10 amp,they can use the 10 amp breakers and not the arc faults.It has nothing to do with the 10 amp breaker tripping due to an arc fault or any other technical reason,they're not bright enough for any of that,they're just using it as a way not to have to pay for the arc faults.Someone please help me find a definite code statement that would rule this installation illegal.I tried to come up with one but as of yet cannot find anything.I've also posed this question to a local vocational electrical instructor who immediately picked up the code book but has yet to point me to a direct code statement to deem this installation illegal as per the 2002 code.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Once again I find myself flipping endlessly through the NEC trying to answer questions that shouldn't have to be asked.
rolley.gif
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

This should be a no brainier. Using the 2002 code.
210.3 The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes.
Branch Circuit, Individual. A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment.
Unless they are wiring each and every outlet (box) individually then it is not in compliance with the 2002 code.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by jwelectric:
This should be a no brainier. Using the 2002 code.
210.3 The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes.
Branch Circuit, Individual. A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment.
Unless they are wiring each and every outlet (box) individually then it is not in compliance with the 2002 code.
Click to expand...
----------------------->JW,like I said...What did it for me,key word in defining "device",and in that exception alone,is the understanding where the line is drawn..."I don't teach the NEC,like yourself sir".Sometimes the differance in "one word" defines and changes the final outcome..I don't consider this thread,as personally being a waist of my time,along the lines of "Safety" in posing of my question in looking for and understanding the right answer.. It was in fact,very interesting.And glad it was answered,to the point of me understanding [ I came back to edit the rest of this post, serves no usefull purpose to the form,and also due to the "chill factor" setting in ]- my apologies to form members, and the intended at aim...dillon

[ January 25, 2005, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

dillon3c,

I'm missing where device enters in. Can you help me with the Code citation(s)?

I read the definition in article 100 and I don't understand how it applies to whether or not a multioutlet 10 Amp branch circuit can exist by the NEC.

I see 210.20(D) and 210.21 (title & opening line) and Table 210.24 (eighth line counting the title line), as being the only places in Article 210 that use device to mean something other than overcurrent protective device.

I am guessing that you understand a 10 Amp multioutlet circuit to not be allowed, right?

How can Article 100 Utilization Equipment not be applied to a smoke detector, regardless of what you read in NFPA 72?

[ January 24, 2005, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by roger:
Esox39, I agree with you and this thread is the first I've heard of someone trying to feed the whole BR with a 10 amp breaker. What I heard was hapening before, was people were feeding the Smoke Detectors with a dedicated 10 amp circuit to get around putting them on an AFCI.

Roger
Click to expand...
This actually seems reasonable, and code compliant, if a bit goofy.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by jwelectric:
This should be a no brainier. Using the 2002 code.
210.3 The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes.
Branch Circuit, Individual. A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment.
Unless they are wiring each and every outlet (box) individually then it is not in compliance with the 2002 code.
Click to expand...
Is 210.3 refering to the device ratings or the branch circuit OCPD rating?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Bob,

What is your take on 210.3?
2002 NEC 210.3 Rating.

Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device. The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. - (my emphasis - Al) Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
Click to expand...
Does the last sentence, the sentence after the Italics I inserted, basically mean that I can put any OCPD on a conductor as long as the conductor is sized larger than the OCPD?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Al,not being an Instructor,I'll give it a shot.As I see it,in a "device" being connected to the circuit,it is not "Utilization Equipment",in the drawing of energy itself.. As far as the Smoke Detector,NFPA 72,in definitions, it is infact called a "device"..May be defined as the latter,as in Utilization Equipment,in reading of definitions in NFPA 70..I'm reading electronic,electromechanic,chemical,heating,lighting and simular(which is debatable).But in the need to install,"two or more",can't be defined as individual branch as in being only One.There is more than one on (device) that circuit.So thats leading you back to 210.12 (b)dwelling unit bedroom.Which the whole thread, was based on. Can't be installed on a 10 ampere breaker, in dwelling unit,under those conditions reqardless..

[ January 24, 2005, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
Bob,

What is your take on 210.3?
2002 NEC 210.3 Rating.

Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device. The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. - (my emphasis - Al) Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
Click to expand...
Does the last sentence, the sentence after the Italics I inserted, basically mean that I can put any OCPD on a conductor as long as the conductor is sized larger than the OCPD?
Click to expand...
Boy is this a convoluted paragraph. It appears that they wanted to ban the use of other than 15,20,30,40,and 50 A OCPDs on BC that had more than one outlet on them.

However, it also refers to BC recognized by this article. Maybe another section describes other kinds of BC since they went to the trouble to make this distinction.

Sorry I can't look it up myself but I am at home today and no code book.

However, it does not appear to ban other ratings, only to recognize certain ratings for the purposes of this section. Why its worded that way is beyond me.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

The referred to object of "the specified overcurrent device" is what is elluding me.

I assume that the CMP is refering to the previous sentence, but it sure isn't clear.

Specified might mean what the engineer is asking for.

edit for sp - Al

[ January 24, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Mr. Dillon3c
I humbly beg your forgiveness if you or anyone else has taken offense about what I have said here or elsewhere in this forum. I promise that I had no malice in mind when I made the statement ?no brainier?. I was only trying to point out that a 10 amp breaker cannot be installed on a bedroom circuit supplying more than one outlet. 210.3 says it all, no circuit smaller than 15 amp shall be installed except for an individual circuit. Individual circuit is defined in 100 as a branch circuit that supplies only ?one? utilization equipment.
edited to add "Please forgive me for my short comings"

[ January 24, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
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