side stepping arc fault breakers

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Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

WOW,what a thread! It may be "O.K." to use a 10 amp breaker but, you will still need to meet the requirements of 210.52. this art. provides requirements for 125volt 15-20 amp receptacle outlets and says these outlets will be spaced so at no point along the wall.......... a 10 amp protected circuit can not meet the requirements 210.52 you will still need the required receptacles 125v 15-20amp. on a 10 amp (ocd)it is no longer a 15 amp receptacle outlet it is a 10 amp receptacle outlet and now you have violated 210.52, unless the 10 amp receptacle outlets are in addition to.There is no doubt however, that the required outlets will be arc fault protected.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Bryan,
That doesn't make sense? What if I use 10 AWG for all my 15-ampere branch circuits. Does that mean they are actually 30-ampere branch circuits because that is maximum permitted OCPD for that circuit?
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I never said the code makes sense! How do you read the words that I quoted?
Don
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
I never said the code makes sense! How do you read the words that I quoted?
Don
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I think I read the section the same way you do?

Where conductors of higher amapcity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
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This tells me that 14 AWG conductors on a 10-ampere OCD is a 10-ampere rated circuit.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Bryan,
210.3 Rating.
Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device. The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
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Very poor wording in this section. You can read the last sentence as having the opposite meaning from the first one. You can also read the middle one as saying that the multi-outlet branch circuits must be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes.
Don
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Sounds like an good Proposal opportunity.

Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the ampere rating or maximum permitted setting of the overcurrent device.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Cram,

You make an interesting point with 210.52. That, I think, is the reference to red tag a bedroom with 10 A OCP on the receptacle outlets.

However:

Take a look at 210.70 Required Lighting Outlets. Amperage and Voltage are not specified for them.

In my opinion, lighting outlets are still fair game for the 10 Amp circuit. As are the smokes. Even when they are in the bedroom.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Al, I think 210.3 Rating ,takes care of it from a practical point of view,although I suppose one could run individual branch circuits to each and every lighting outlet/fixture/equipment.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

The posts on these last pages finally brought this home to me.
The guys who installed the 10 amp OCD's followed the letter of the code. But they surly broke the intent. The inspector was correct in allowing it. He followed the letter of the code, He didn't try to use his interpretation of the code. (Where have I heard that before.)


210.3 Rating.
Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device. The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
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210.3
maximum permitted ampere rating or setting???
10amp CB 10amps
adjustable CB whatever the max is
rating or setting
It should have read like above. my 2cents
other than individual branch circuits
(2005)210.7(B)...(2002)210.7(C)
Multiple branch circuits. like the dishwasher/disposal must be 15,20...ect

If you didn't rate circuits by the OCPD how would you EVER derate a circuit

210.12(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits....
10 amp circuits must be ok

Jus makes ya go HHMMMMMMM

[ January 28, 2005, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: woofy ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

woofy, the "maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the ocd" is, impart, the language that allows you,for the purpose of correcting voltage drop, of having a # 10 on a 20 amp breaker.I don't see that you can get away from the "shall be 15,20,30,40 and 50" for other than individual branch circuits. I think the inspector was wrong. It says the rating "shall be",read 90.5(a)2002 Mandatory rules. the only way I see a 10 amp 125 volt outlet of any kind is as an individual branch circuit.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

One of you gave the example of #10 wire with a 20a OCPD. The it would be concluded that the size of the circuit was based upon 20a and not 30 and the wire size had to be adjusted because of voltage drop, ambient temp, number of wires in a raceway, etc.
But I believe that we are talking about a plain Jane circuit sized for 15a with #14 wire where derating is not an issue thus protected by a 15a OCPD. We replace that 15a breaker with a 10a breaker.
Then, is this a code violation:
Let's say you got a call from your boss who asked you to stop by a customer before returning to the shop to run a simple 15a circuit with a few outlets in a small family room addition. You went to the job sight and discovered that you didn't have enough #14 in the truck and ran the circuit with #12 and installed a 15a breaker in the panel because we didn't have a 20. The customer just wanted a 15a circuit anyway.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

"maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the ocd" is, impart, the language that allows you,for the purpose of correcting voltage drop
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I agree It's what I ment to say

I don't see that you can get away from the "shall be 15,20,30,40 and 50" for other than individual branch circuits.
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I agree......
Multi-wire Branch circuits: "shall be 15,20,30,40 and 50"

Multiple Branch circuits:" "shall be 15,20,30,40 and 50"

Idividual Branch circuits Shall be what?? It doesn't say what Inividual Branch circuits "shall be" :)
I say that with a smile because I don't know how many times I read that article in the last week and read over other than.

The more I read the more I learn.
If they were operating under the2002 code they were ok.
BC= the wires between the final ocpd and the outlets

But the crafty devils who write the code :D closed that loophole by defining an Inviual BC in the 2005 code
Art 100
Branch Circuit, Individual. A branch circuit that supplies only one utilisation equipment.

The 2002 branch circuit is now a general purpose branch circuit.

What a deal....Realy makes me go HHHMMMMMMM now

cram
I have to agree that it all stinks. and I don't belive I would do it that way. But per the 2002 code I believe the Inspector made the right choice.
I not going to look what '99 said. I bet the Inspector was gritting his teeth when he did it though.
..........Mike
buttrock2.gif


[ January 28, 2005, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: woofy ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Woofy,

Take a look in Article 100 Branch Circuit, Individual. Not multiwire, but utilization equipment.

I agree. This is a magnificent learning environment!

Edit - as I reread your post, you are referencing this. Now I'm confused about how you arrived the inspector allowing the use of the 10 A OCP. Respectfully, Al

Edit - edit - :D Branch Circuit, Individual is the same in my 2005, 2002 & 1999.

[ January 28, 2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

AL
are you saying that a 10A breaker is compliant on a branch circuit that supplies more than one outlet?

Charlie
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Charlie,

That is the Question. :)

That last sentence in 200.3 has an open end that I can't grasp.
Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
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What or who is specifying which overcurrent device? This is a verb, specified, is it not?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

210.3 clearly states that for other than individual branch circuits the rating "shall be 15,20,30,40,50".Again the only chance for a 10 amp 125 volt outlet of any kind is on an individual branch circuit.I fail to see the big mystery, it is a violation if that circuit with an ocpd rated at 10 amps was not an individual branch circuit.I do not dispute that you may have a piece of equipment in a bedroom that can be provided for by a 10 amp 125 volt branch circuit and ,that, that circuit/ outlet does not require afci protection but it must be recognized that, that receptacle/ outlet is not part of the required receptacle outlets and has to be an individual branch circuit. You cannot feed a bedroom with a 10 amp circuit nor can you feed multiple smokes or multiple anything for that matter and comply with 210.3 or 210.52. I can see no wording that suggests otherwise.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Marc,

Since the specified overcurrent device isn't clear about whether it is the list in the previous sentence, the engineer spec on the plan, the specification of the installing electrician, the specification of the AHJ, I don't think there is a way to say the middle sentence of 200.3 is a restrictive and definitive requirement.
Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason,
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leads me to thinking of #14 copper on a 10 A OCP, and that it fits in this last sentence.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Al I'm inclined to read the paragraph with that last sentence modifing the previous. Similar to the method required in the style manual for exceptions , with the more prominent one first and the lesser ones following in decending order. I can only go back to the 78 Code here at home, but as foggy as a memory can be I recall these basic rules in the 65 NEC. They did change classified to rating in the 93 I think.

In any case if a question receives this much attention 8 Pages and the forum is down to a few sentences in a rather small paragraph (210.3)I'm all for a letter to the Chair of Code Panel 2 for a formal interpretation. This whole thing was kicked off to circumvent the installation of AFCI onSmoke Detector Branch Circuits in Dwelling Units. Politically I believe the deck is stacked against that going through, check out http://www.firemarshals.org/issues/catastrophic/index.html, for the marshals position on the use of arc fault breakers protecting smokes.

It's just my opinion but my guess would be that an official interpretation would require branch circuits other than individual branch circuits can not be rated less than 15A.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Al, Marc

DANG I hate it when I'm wrong. :)

Since that is the case the inspector was wrong. He just read the same book I did the first time. :p

well if you can't poke fun at yourself..

this has been a good one.......Mike

buttrock3.gif
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

al h: actually in the sentence you quoted, the use of "specified" is not a verb, it's used as a adjectival qualifying description for a noun.

verb "the documents specified that x be used..."

adjective "the specified device was used..."
also adjective "the device specified had problems..."


Although i think the technology has some ways to go and the codes are premature in their assumptions of reliability for afci technology, I do not see this as a real way out.

Without looking for it, in the NEC intro, there resides the statement that codes may be ahead of the technology and if so, the preceeding code applies. Given the afci inability to handle common household devices from power strips to dimmers, nuisance tripping for non-fault items, and that lighting and medical equipment as safety/egress and life support takes precedence over a premature code application, jurisdictions can choose to ignore afci codes.

Given the drive for home medical care and critical life support items like oxygen and call notification, powered phones for 911 calls, and the like, i cannot understand the rush to implement a problematic code application.

There should be exceptions within the provisions for where protected wiring methods are used. Since all the proponents describe faulty wiring and added external items as reasons for afci implementation, they have never adequately answered the protected wiring, dedicated use, emergency medical applications. I take this to mean that the equipment suppliers have enough clout to overcome common sense on CMP decisions.

bandwagon hoo-haw got California MTBE. I consider afci hoo-haw and meant to benefit producers of said items at home owners expense. I am waiting for the first big lawsuit against a jurisdiction for wrongful death, and that could come from the assertion that no 911 call could have been made from a failed power phone, call button, etc.

paul :cool:
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Al,Just because you use conductors with a greater ampacity that act alone does not exclude you from meeting the requirement.the rating "shall be 15,20,30,40,50". What it does allow however, is for you to wire a bedroom in 12/2 and put it on a 15 amp arc fault breaker.It does not mean you get to "determine" the rating regardless of the requirements for 210.3, that has already been done for anything other than individual branch circuits.just for s#its and giggles I looked up specify,it means to mention or describe in detail or to state explicitly. if you substitute mentioned for "specified" it may read more clearly.I still do not see the big mystery with this one, "shall" indicates a mandatory requirement.
 
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