Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
- Thread starter bphgravity
- Start date
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jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
To clear up the post I made earlier about the electrical inspector asking the home owner to enter the home and look at the closet light.
After talking to the electrician on the phone tonight what happened was the CO was needed so the electrical inspector passed after the light and switch was removed but the plumbing and building hadn?t passed. When the building inspector did his final he noticed the light and shelves and inquired of the electrical inspector.
The electrical inspector was doing another inspection in the neighborhood and saw the people unloading the truck and stopped. Thus the big deal came down about the light.
Instead of a shelf the home owner had the closet man install wire baskets which would hold clothing. A guaranteed fire in the making. The general contractor called the electrician because the inspector got involved.
Personally I think things like these need to be more closely watched. If the fixture is to close and constitutes a danger of fire then it needs to be removed no matter what the big red book calls for. I mean completely removed where the home owner can not add it back.
Let?s not forget that the code is nothing more than a consensus of the code making panel.
NFPA codes and standards are widely adopted because they are developed using an open, consensus-based process. All NFPA codes and standards are developed and periodically reviewed by more than 5,000 volunteer committee members with a wide range of professional expertise. These volunteers serve on more than 200 technical committees and are overseen by the NFPA Board of Directors, which also appoints a 13-person Standards Council to administer the standards-making activities and regulations.
This information can be found here and follow these links (Codes and Standards) (Code development process) (How the code process works)
To clear up the post I made earlier about the electrical inspector asking the home owner to enter the home and look at the closet light.
After talking to the electrician on the phone tonight what happened was the CO was needed so the electrical inspector passed after the light and switch was removed but the plumbing and building hadn?t passed. When the building inspector did his final he noticed the light and shelves and inquired of the electrical inspector.
The electrical inspector was doing another inspection in the neighborhood and saw the people unloading the truck and stopped. Thus the big deal came down about the light.
Instead of a shelf the home owner had the closet man install wire baskets which would hold clothing. A guaranteed fire in the making. The general contractor called the electrician because the inspector got involved.
Personally I think things like these need to be more closely watched. If the fixture is to close and constitutes a danger of fire then it needs to be removed no matter what the big red book calls for. I mean completely removed where the home owner can not add it back.
Let?s not forget that the code is nothing more than a consensus of the code making panel.
NFPA codes and standards are widely adopted because they are developed using an open, consensus-based process. All NFPA codes and standards are developed and periodically reviewed by more than 5,000 volunteer committee members with a wide range of professional expertise. These volunteers serve on more than 200 technical committees and are overseen by the NFPA Board of Directors, which also appoints a 13-person Standards Council to administer the standards-making activities and regulations.
This information can be found here and follow these links (Codes and Standards) (Code development process) (How the code process works)
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
I presented the issue to my supervisor and he in return brought it to the attention of the CBO. They have basically agreed to go with Charlie B's approach. We feel 99% of contractors will comply and for the 1% that want to fight it, we will invite them in to discuss there view of the situation. (In actuality, we will be informing the builder that we want them to correct the situation for us - meaning - we are going to tell them we don't like the situation and since we can't definitively show a code violation, we are going to make it the builder tell the contractor's they don't want this happening anymore)
This isn't the only example where we have had this problem. On many occasions, a new pool inspection will fail because an existing reeptacle ends up within 10' of the pool's edge. The usual correction is simply blanking it off. Obviously, the homowner or whomever can simply reinstall it after we leave.
I guess I am still on the fence with this one. Apart of my method of inspection is to pretend I am buying the home and I try to determine if I would feel the installations would be satisfactory to me, while making sure that my opinions don't cloud the fact that I can only enforce the minimum requirements. It's quite a challenge.
I presented the issue to my supervisor and he in return brought it to the attention of the CBO. They have basically agreed to go with Charlie B's approach. We feel 99% of contractors will comply and for the 1% that want to fight it, we will invite them in to discuss there view of the situation. (In actuality, we will be informing the builder that we want them to correct the situation for us - meaning - we are going to tell them we don't like the situation and since we can't definitively show a code violation, we are going to make it the builder tell the contractor's they don't want this happening anymore)
This isn't the only example where we have had this problem. On many occasions, a new pool inspection will fail because an existing reeptacle ends up within 10' of the pool's edge. The usual correction is simply blanking it off. Obviously, the homowner or whomever can simply reinstall it after we leave.
I guess I am still on the fence with this one. Apart of my method of inspection is to pretend I am buying the home and I try to determine if I would feel the installations would be satisfactory to me, while making sure that my opinions don't cloud the fact that I can only enforce the minimum requirements. It's quite a challenge.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
This happens all of the time. All that I do is make a note on the report that at the time of final inspection, there is a blank on the lighting outlet, and therefore is code compliant.
This happens all of the time. All that I do is make a note on the report that at the time of final inspection, there is a blank on the lighting outlet, and therefore is code compliant.
dduffee260
Senior Member
- Location
- Texas
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
Why don't they just install a surface mount flourescent fixture in the place of the blank? I am not looking at a code book now but I think it says that flourescent lamps are allowed.
Why don't they just install a surface mount flourescent fixture in the place of the blank? I am not looking at a code book now but I think it says that flourescent lamps are allowed.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
Fluorescents are also required to be clear of storage space. Basically, I look for a fluorscent to be 18" from the back and side walls of the closet, and incandescent need to be 24" from the back and side walls. You can't tell in all cases what they plan on installing during the rough so I just advise to take note of the location and ensure clearance.
Fluorescents are also required to be clear of storage space. Basically, I look for a fluorscent to be 18" from the back and side walls of the closet, and incandescent need to be 24" from the back and side walls. You can't tell in all cases what they plan on installing during the rough so I just advise to take note of the location and ensure clearance.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
Lighting outlet? Having a lighting outlet that close to the shelf would make it a code violation wouldn't it? Remove the wire or move it. There is no reason to have a box that close other than to install a light. You can justify it all you want, that doesn't make it right though. Move it.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
Luminaire placement is a violation...lighting outlet placemtn is not. See Article 100.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
It has nothing to do with if you where buying the home.
To me there is no fine line in the problem you describe.
Is there a luminaire installed there?
No there is a blank, it must pass.
I always use a fused disconnect switch as an example. Today during inspection it has the correct fuse in it, we can not tell what size fuse someone may put in it tomorrow.
How about the luminaires that only handle 60 watt lamps, we know homeowners place 100 watt lamps in them, are you going to require 100 watt luminaires?
It is black and white....... well unless you work from the handbook.
This sounds wrong to me, all that should be in your mind is the NEC and local rules.
It has nothing to do with if you where buying the home.
Without a doubt, I would never say an inspectors job is easy. However you are a man that is very well versed in the NEC and that should make it easer.
To me there is no fine line in the problem you describe.
Is there a luminaire installed there?
No there is a blank, it must pass.
I always use a fused disconnect switch as an example. Today during inspection it has the correct fuse in it, we can not tell what size fuse someone may put in it tomorrow.
How about the luminaires that only handle 60 watt lamps, we know homeowners place 100 watt lamps in them, are you going to require 100 watt luminaires?
IMO Ryan is right on the money, he is enforcing the code as written.
It is black and white....... well unless you work from the handbook.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
One way for an inspector to cover his a$$ is to take a picture of this blank with a copy of the days newspaper in same picture.Now if anything happens he can prove that on this date there was a blank.Once a house passes chances are it never will see an inspector again.That is untill they have a fire or death.As an inspector your job is to see if it meets code at time of inspection.Has nothing to do with if you like it or what might happen in future.Will this fixture go back up ? 99% sure it will.But you can't stop what might happen.The EC and you need to have a friendly chat.Let him know how you feel and let him know that your trust in his work will make you look extra hard on his jobs in future.Why didn't he simply correct this problem by cutting in a new box and just use the old one as a junction box ? Then the problem is over.
One way for an inspector to cover his a$$ is to take a picture of this blank with a copy of the days newspaper in same picture.Now if anything happens he can prove that on this date there was a blank.Once a house passes chances are it never will see an inspector again.That is untill they have a fire or death.As an inspector your job is to see if it meets code at time of inspection.Has nothing to do with if you like it or what might happen in future.Will this fixture go back up ? 99% sure it will.But you can't stop what might happen.The EC and you need to have a friendly chat.Let him know how you feel and let him know that your trust in his work will make you look extra hard on his jobs in future.Why didn't he simply correct this problem by cutting in a new box and just use the old one as a junction box ? Then the problem is over.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
IMO, all that needs to be said is, "You're not putting a fixture, there, right?" When he nods his head with his fingers crossed behind his back, make a note on the paperwork, sign it off, move on.
[ October 02, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
Jim, what was your last profession? Hostage negotiator?
What does that mean?
IMO, all that needs to be said is, "You're not putting a fixture, there, right?" When he nods his head with his fingers crossed behind his back, make a note on the paperwork, sign it off, move on.
[ October 02, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
why would the inspector need to "cover his a$$"?
there are a million other things someone could change after the inspection as well.
you might as well bring a video camera and video tape everything in the house as you inspect it.
why would the inspector need to "cover his a$$"?
there are a million other things someone could change after the inspection as well.
you might as well bring a video camera and video tape everything in the house as you inspect it.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
When something bad happens lawyers go after anyone and everyone they can possabbly blame.The inspector best have something to back up his side.
When something bad happens lawyers go after anyone and everyone they can possabbly blame.The inspector best have something to back up his side.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
his side of what?
that argument could apply to anything in the house. Including stuff that is not even electrical.
besides, as a government employee he is basically exempt from lawsuits.
his side of what?
that argument could apply to anything in the house. Including stuff that is not even electrical.
besides, as a government employee he is basically exempt from lawsuits.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
noone is exempt from being sued
noone is exempt from being sued
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
Actually they are pretty much personally protected from law suits.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
Are you familiar with the Doctrine of Soveriegn Immunity?
Re: Side-Stepping Corrections for Inspections
it is generally stated in the individual codes that the hiring body will provide legal protection for the inspectors. That implies that law suits are possible. AND law suits are being brought against counties for all sorts of malfeasance and winning.
it is generally stated in the individual codes that the hiring body will provide legal protection for the inspectors. That implies that law suits are possible. AND law suits are being brought against counties for all sorts of malfeasance and winning.
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