*!&%* Siding guys!

[hbiss]

I've had two instances in a row now where I had been asked to replace some outside fixtures. Upon removing a fixture it was apparent that a siding guy moved the fixtures some distance from where they were originally installed. In cases like this, the fixtures are always screwed into siding or a "siding block" with sheetrock screws. The wiring is usually extended with scraps of wire (sometimes zip cord) under the siding if it doesn't reach from where the box is and of course there is no ground.

I've also seen these guys put a pry bar behind meter pans to "loosen it up a little" so that they can get their insulation or siding behind it, re-attach service drops with nails and rope, etc.

Tell the homeowner about it and you usually just get something like "it works, doesn't it" or "the guy did a beautiful job, what are you talking about?". Tell them how much I'll have to charge and what I'll have to do to make it right then replace the fixtures and they don't want to hear it.

What can be done about siding guys who do this kind of work? I've pretty much given up since this has been going on forever and nobody seems to be able to do anything about it at least around here. There has to be some accountability.

 

[Guest]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

Ouch! In California there is no statute of limitations on improper work according to the CSLB (Contractor's State License Board). Typically they will only go after cases for the first five to ten years. I know you're not in CA. Maybe a call to your licensing board? Or, maybe one of those local news "call for action" programs?

http://www.cslb.ca.gov

[ October 27, 2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[hbiss]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

I would think though that any complaint would have to come from the owner. Problem is they either don't know the issues, don't care or are happy to have gotten away without hiring an electrician because the siding guy "took care of it". Then when you tell then that in order to replace the fixtures you have to do major work they look at YOU like you are crazy and trying to rip them off. So, I really don't think they would be filing a complaint against the siding guy anytime soon.

 

[Guest]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

Pull an electrical permit and get the inspector to run interference for you. S/he'll make you bring it up to code

 

[iwire]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

Originally posted by awwt:
Pull an electrical permit and get the inspector to run interference for you. S/he'll make you bring it up to code

Unless there is some local amendment the inspector has limited authority to make existing installation be brought up to current code.

Part of 80.9(B)

Existing electrical installations that do not comply with the provisions of this Code shall be permitted to be continued in use unless the authority having jurisdiction determines that the lack of conformity with this Code presents an imminent danger to occupants.

Article 80 may not have been adopted in your area, it is not adopted in my area but we have almost identical rules to replace it.

 

[hbiss]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

To change a couple of fixtures? Nah, besides, then it still makes ME look like the bad guy.

 

[Guest]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

Some how you need to take control of the job and get it done right. Can you call the siding guys and ask them to come over and help you work something out? Did they pull a permit for the siding job? If so, then they pulled a fast one on the AHJ. If nothing else call the AHJ and ask them for a courtesy inspection (if a permit was pulled for the siding). There must be a way to address this and make it look like you are the good guy. Somebody here will have the solution for you.

 

[goldstar]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

I've had this complaint for the longest time now and I was waiting for someone to bring it up. I don't wish anyone any harm but I'm waiting for the day that one of these siding contractors pulls the meter pan off the original siding and has an attachmant screw hit one of the lugs inside. Sparks will fly, hopefully no one will get hurt and maybe then municipalities will require permits (that include electrical work) for doing siding work.

[ October 27, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: goldstar ]

 

[Guest]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

I don't want to clog up the forum, but in my town they require a permit for residing. The fact that permits aren't pulled doesn't take away the requirement for a permit. There are very few things that even by the UBC that can be done nationally (where adopted) without a permit.

Once we pull a permit we can take control of the job and do it by the book.

There is a reluctance to pull permits or risk "being the bad guy". When we pull a permit and it's done right many clients will earn a new respect for us. If they don't, then they weren't what we needed anyway. The good ones who respect you will refer you to many other jobs.

This work was never done to code and now that you're on the job it's your responsibility to make sure it ends up safe & proper. What if the house burns down after you rehang the lights?

I know dropping & rehanging a light normally doesn't fall under a permit, but the work it would take to make it right does fall under a permit-- and again the siding should have had a permit & inspections too-- unless your AHJ has some very lax rules.

There's gotta be a way to sell it to the client and get it fixed up to their benefit.

Take out all the you's & your's if it makes it less personal. It's not my intention to get personal here. I know the feeling when you feel like the client is running the job and making you do things you'd never do on your own home.

 

[iwire]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

Wayne do you even read the posts you answer to? :roll:

The siding guys where long down the road when hbiss was called in to replace the fixtures.

I fail to see anyway he can get any inspector to force the correction of the siding idiots work.

And if he does do this, how is he possibly not going to look like the bad guy?

All the homeowner knows or cares was this light was working fine before hbiss got there and now hbiss wants or needs more money to make it work again.

Most homeowners will not understand or care they got shafted by the siding idiot.

 

[Guest]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

We don't need to get personal here.

Yes, I stated that the siding guys pulled one over on the AHJ when they closed up the lighting outlets. They are long gone. They should have or did pull a permit when it was done.

Please re-read my post. It is very relevent.

This is a can-of-worms. There is no easy way out. I don't have an easy answer.

Regardless of when the siding was done it should have been done right. I'm assuming this was a re-siding job like vinyl or aluminum. If they put on wire stretchers and did not use approved lighting device outlet boxes then they tricked the AHJ. They got past him/her. There is recourse for that. Even without recourse there should be a way to make this a win/win/win situation.

1. Talk to the homeowner.
2. Talk to the permitting dept.
3. Talk to the siding contractor and see if s/he'll do anything at this point to avoid being embarassed-- and help make reparations.

This is a horrible and common situation. We must have strategies to make it right or we end up holding the bag when the house burns down or somebody gets hurt.

 

[iwire]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

Originally posted by awwt:
1. Talk to the homeowner.
2. Talk to the permitting dept.
3. Talk to the siding contractor and see if s/he'll do anything at this point to avoid being embarrassed-- and help make reparations.

Which number here makes the electrician on the job now look like the good guy.

A siding guy embarrassed, CA is different.

[ October 27, 2003, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[charlie b]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

Originally posted by awwt:. . . in my town they require a permit for residing.

I am currently residing in Washington, but I didn?t need a permit for that.

 

[Guest]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

That would all be fine & good for an electrician, but a contractor bears the butt of the responsibility and is held to a higher standard than an electrician. The buck stops there.

I am not aware of any jurisdictions that have adopted the UBC or NEC that would give a permit waiver for siding replacement. The UBC list of exempted projects is very thin. The NEC doesn't spell it out, but the AHJ's do.

If no permit is required to re-side the place then it's a moot point.

I'm trying to be helpful here. The only hope is to figure out the leverage to take control of the job and get it done right. This is more substantial than a sheet metal screw or a red anti-short bushing.

It also hurts our pride when we get bullied into doing something that's not up to our standards.

I'm not shooting from the lip here. This is a serious matter & it's a horrible bind to be in. The only solution I see is lots of communication between the all parties involved, including those with the unclean hands (the siding folks).

Hey, folks let's try to be helpful here. Picking apart my plan is fine, but offer some helpful tips too. Unless the purpose here was just to vent. If that's the case I can accept that and I'm done. I don't need to prove my points. I'm just trying to bring something helpful to the table.

If you have any personal issues with this posting, please Private Message me so we can discuss those offline where they belong.

If anybody wants to continue to pick my suggestions apart, I'll start a new thread so we don't take the focus off the matter at hand. PM me, or post here if you want me to start a new thread. Otherwise, please chime in with helpful stuff.

../Wayne C.

[ October 27, 2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[rickcham]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

I have seen a few of these siding jobs where a meter box was supported by just the SE cable at the weatherhead. Some parts of the country require a permit to do siding work others do not. I have done work in both the New England area and Virginia and yes there is a difference I agree that it should be brought to an inspector attention if anything to make someone aware of shotty work, And if nothing else speaking to the building inspector about what was found whether permit required or not hopefully would raise a flag to look for a pattern in the contractors work and can be addressed at some point.
The homeowner will only complain about he electrician who wanted to charge him for work to repair lights,
Hbiss I would give a written estimate outlining the problems to the homeowner and possible causes, even site the code rules violated. If he understands and accepts the fact that someone took advantage of him in the past good! If not he can always call someone else to fix the problem.
But I still would stop by ot have a chat with the inspector about what you found.

 

[hillbilly]

Re: *!&%* Siding guys!

I had a call where the mast had actually fallen off of the house. The "siding" guys "forgot" to restrap the mast to the house and it just "stood" there" for 3 days before the right gust of wind had it's way. Lucky no fireworks.
steve