Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
- Thread starter sylvia
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hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
There was a manufacture recall when they first came out. But that was in 2002. you know these AFCI breakers because they are larger than a standard single pole breaker and hang over the neutral bar. The newer ones are the same size as a standard single pole breaker. We have been having problems with ITE's when there is a paddle fan with a click type speed control and the circuit has a surge suppressor plugged in for a computer or anything. Also a vacuum cleaner will trip them too with the surge suppressor plugged in. removing the surge suppressor works every time. I have been in touch with UL about this and they are changing testing requirements so the AFCI will handle the paddle fan but they are still running test on the surge suppressor problem and haven't had enough input from the field to narrow it down.
There was a manufacture recall when they first came out. But that was in 2002. you know these AFCI breakers because they are larger than a standard single pole breaker and hang over the neutral bar. The newer ones are the same size as a standard single pole breaker. We have been having problems with ITE's when there is a paddle fan with a click type speed control and the circuit has a surge suppressor plugged in for a computer or anything. Also a vacuum cleaner will trip them too with the surge suppressor plugged in. removing the surge suppressor works every time. I have been in touch with UL about this and they are changing testing requirements so the AFCI will handle the paddle fan but they are still running test on the surge suppressor problem and haven't had enough input from the field to narrow it down.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
I contacted Siemens some time ago regarding the same issue with AFCI breakers. They gave me three "unofficial" recommendations.
[ December 01, 2004, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
I contacted Siemens some time ago regarding the same issue with AFCI breakers. They gave me three "unofficial" recommendations.
[ December 01, 2004, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
I can't fathom after all the nuisance tripping with GFCI's when they first came out that these common items weren't tested in conjunction with AFCI's
I can't fathom after all the nuisance tripping with GFCI's when they first came out that these common items weren't tested in conjunction with AFCI's
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
NEMA is also still pushing for all the dwelling unit circuits to be protected with AFCIs. Just how will this be accomplished with those restrictions?
NEMA is also still pushing for all the dwelling unit circuits to be protected with AFCIs. Just how will this be accomplished with those restrictions?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
1. Do not put 2 afci breakers side-by-side. For best results, don't place an afci breaker next to an other breaker.
Get the new NEMA 84 space panel that only allows the use of every other space.
2. Do not serve motor loads such as bathroom or attic exhaust fans.
Buy the new AFCI approved fans.
3. Certain cord-and-plug loads such as UPS, vacuum, and a/c units will "false" trip the afci breakers. Avoid these loads whenever possible.
Stop being cheap, you really should have central Air Conditioning and Central vacuuming systems anyway. New AFCI approved UPSs are on the way to market.
[ December 01, 2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
NEMA has some products coming out to 'cure' the problems.
1. Do not put 2 afci breakers side-by-side. For best results, don't place an afci breaker next to an other breaker.
Get the new NEMA 84 space panel that only allows the use of every other space.
2. Do not serve motor loads such as bathroom or attic exhaust fans.
Buy the new AFCI approved fans.
3. Certain cord-and-plug loads such as UPS, vacuum, and a/c units will "false" trip the afci breakers. Avoid these loads whenever possible.
Stop being cheap, you really should have central Air Conditioning and Central vacuuming systems anyway. New AFCI approved UPSs are on the way to market.
[ December 01, 2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
Uh...central vacuum isn't code, but the %$^&%$$%# fershnecked AFCI's are...
Are ITE's more likely to nuisance trip than Homeline and others? My shop has been ITE for a few years, phasing out back to Homeline, so we've dealt with a lot of disfunctional ITE AFCI's.
Is anybody else amused at the 210.12 change? "Uh, ya'll need to observe this for 2005 code, but no worries until the next edition comes out and we'll change the wording again anyhows...."
--George
Uh...central vacuum isn't code, but the %$^&%$$%# fershnecked AFCI's are...
Are ITE's more likely to nuisance trip than Homeline and others? My shop has been ITE for a few years, phasing out back to Homeline, so we've dealt with a lot of disfunctional ITE AFCI's.
Is anybody else amused at the 210.12 change? "Uh, ya'll need to observe this for 2005 code, but no worries until the next edition comes out and we'll change the wording again anyhows...."
--George
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
Some dialogue about AFCI's would be good, for passing along to the customer use. People don't understand introductory phases, hit and miss special circuits. The first question I get when I replace a bad ITE in someone's house is, "What is it for?"
I've done a little research, so I reply, "to prevent fires."
"Why isn't it required in all the circuits then?"
"Uh...because...they nuisance trip, they're new, did you forget why you called me to your house?"
What would you do? What can I say, what's the info I don't have that would make this more consumer-understandable? I don't fully understand why they mandate half-tested technology...?
--George
[ February 02, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
You ever said this to a customer and gotten that, "You've got to be kidding," look? Priceless.
Some dialogue about AFCI's would be good, for passing along to the customer use. People don't understand introductory phases, hit and miss special circuits. The first question I get when I replace a bad ITE in someone's house is, "What is it for?"
I've done a little research, so I reply, "to prevent fires."
"Why isn't it required in all the circuits then?"
"Uh...because...they nuisance trip, they're new, did you forget why you called me to your house?"
What would you do? What can I say, what's the info I don't have that would make this more consumer-understandable? I don't fully understand why they mandate half-tested technology...?
--George
[ February 02, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
Are the manufacturers just being lazy and using the early AFCI installations as beta testing?
When the contractor balks when told he needs AFCI protection and mentions all the nuisance tripping, it would be nice to have an intelligent answer besides the code requires it. Fully tested technology would have prevented that.
Are the manufacturers just being lazy and using the early AFCI installations as beta testing?
wirenut1980
Senior Member
- Location
- Plainfield, IN
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
First off, I agree that AFCI should not be required by code if it is only "half tested." But I think the reasoning of eventually requiring them on bedroom circuits is because that is where we sleep, and that if there was an arc in the bedroom from a connection coming loose that started a fire and people do not have smoke or heat detectors in the bedrooms...call me crazy
First off, I agree that AFCI should not be required by code if it is only "half tested." But I think the reasoning of eventually requiring them on bedroom circuits is because that is where we sleep, and that if there was an arc in the bedroom from a connection coming loose that started a fire and people do not have smoke or heat detectors in the bedrooms...call me crazy
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
I read an article by (reference deleted, I couldn't find the article again and might have invented the author!) regarding AFCI's, and he described the bedroom requirement as a starting point. I can't remember what else was said regarding it, but there was a statement along those lines.
I agree with the concept, with everything I've read about what they can potentially do to prevent fires caused by damaged wire arcing. I've come to assume lately that perhaps Siemens has allowed their own testing standards to lapse. It seems that their panels have gotten harder and harder to use with their slipshod workmanship--knockouts are practically impossible to remove cleanly anymore. I have had several cases where 150 amp Metermains have the concentric pattern, but wasn't stamped deep enough to actually remove the knockout.
I figured the nuisance tripping from ITE AFCI's was just another symptom of that. I've had two and heard of...probably two other instances where a nuisance AFCI was swapped out, and then the replacement AFCI was nuisance tripping too. The third one held. Sometimes turning them off and on, the breaker decides at random to stay on or trip...
A classic was when a light in a bedroom was installed by a green guy. A wire came out of the wire nut(can't remember which, I think it was a black for one of the bulbs in the fixture itself). It resulted in me tearing half of the adjoining bathroom apart, trying to find the stupid problem. Interestingly, the five-bulb vanity would trip the AFCI, intermittently. I could turn the fan on and off in rapid succession, and I slowed way down to arc inside the switch for the vanity, to try and isolate that. The switch, despite audible arcing, didn't trip it. So, I take the vanity down.
In the end, I slowly put each bulb in independently, then sequentially, and whenever I reached 5 bulbs strong installed, the AFCI would trip with regularity. With any four bulbs in, I arced and sparked the connection to the fixture at the wire nut, no trip. So, I tighten all my connections, mess around for another minute thinking, and walk out to have a cigarette and mull it over. As I walked out of the bedroom, I noticed that the switch for the main bedroom light was on, although the light was off, breaker on. Hmm. Flip the switch off as I walked out and :trip!:
AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!
There's nothing like an intermittent problem that lies about what ROOM it's in, like an Arc Fault breaker.
Does anyone have a large nuisance rate with Homeline?
[ January 25, 2005, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
I read an article by (reference deleted, I couldn't find the article again and might have invented the author!) regarding AFCI's, and he described the bedroom requirement as a starting point. I can't remember what else was said regarding it, but there was a statement along those lines.
I agree with the concept, with everything I've read about what they can potentially do to prevent fires caused by damaged wire arcing. I've come to assume lately that perhaps Siemens has allowed their own testing standards to lapse. It seems that their panels have gotten harder and harder to use with their slipshod workmanship--knockouts are practically impossible to remove cleanly anymore. I have had several cases where 150 amp Metermains have the concentric pattern, but wasn't stamped deep enough to actually remove the knockout.
I figured the nuisance tripping from ITE AFCI's was just another symptom of that. I've had two and heard of...probably two other instances where a nuisance AFCI was swapped out, and then the replacement AFCI was nuisance tripping too. The third one held. Sometimes turning them off and on, the breaker decides at random to stay on or trip...
A classic was when a light in a bedroom was installed by a green guy. A wire came out of the wire nut(can't remember which, I think it was a black for one of the bulbs in the fixture itself). It resulted in me tearing half of the adjoining bathroom apart, trying to find the stupid problem. Interestingly, the five-bulb vanity would trip the AFCI, intermittently. I could turn the fan on and off in rapid succession, and I slowed way down to arc inside the switch for the vanity, to try and isolate that. The switch, despite audible arcing, didn't trip it. So, I take the vanity down.
In the end, I slowly put each bulb in independently, then sequentially, and whenever I reached 5 bulbs strong installed, the AFCI would trip with regularity. With any four bulbs in, I arced and sparked the connection to the fixture at the wire nut, no trip. So, I tighten all my connections, mess around for another minute thinking, and walk out to have a cigarette and mull it over. As I walked out of the bedroom, I noticed that the switch for the main bedroom light was on, although the light was off, breaker on. Hmm. Flip the switch off as I walked out and :trip!:
AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!
There's nothing like an intermittent problem that lies about what ROOM it's in, like an Arc Fault breaker.
Does anyone have a large nuisance rate with Homeline?
[ January 25, 2005, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
Don
While it is true that the majority of residential fire deaths occur it the bedroom, it is not true that the majority of these fires originated in the bedroom.
Don
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
Don
Remember that the currently available AFCI only looks at arcs exceeding 75 amps!!! That one reason why the code has been changed to require a different type of AFCI starting in 2008.
Don
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
Wouldn't an arc of 20 amps kick a 15 amp breaker?
I thought the biggest resaon for the 2005 change was to jumpstart in-line arc detection, as opposed to the current line to neutral, line to ground(?) detection?
Wouldn't an arc of 20 amps kick a 15 amp breaker?
I thought the biggest resaon for the 2005 change was to jumpstart in-line arc detection, as opposed to the current line to neutral, line to ground(?) detection?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Siemens Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter
A 15 amp breaker will carry 20 amps for quite a while to forever.
Doubtful.
A 15 amp breaker will carry 20 amps for quite a while to forever.
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