Since you guys are so smart.....

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physis

Senior Member
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

I'm not so smart Scott.

I think the NEC is out of bounds here.

I'm not talking about your installation, but, fine cherry wood cabinetry accented by Italian green marble made to look obnoxious by the finer writings of the NEC.

I wont agree with it.

Where are we gonna smoke our cigars?

Where will we be allowed to enjoy our expensive cabinetry?

[ May 02, 2005, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

Alright!

Now I'll ask if the webmaster can look at this.

I haven't edited my last post.
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

Ok as I see this the area to the left of the cabinets appear to measure more than 12 ins.,this measurement starts from the edge of the counter to the cabinet itself without cabinet details it is hard to determine but most base cabinets are 24 in add the 2 in overhangand deduct the standard 12 in upper more than 12 in perpindicular from the cabinet 1 required.now to the right another 12 in area as it seems again no details so up to our discretion at this point So 2 required accesible receptacles :D
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

Originally posted by physis:
I'm not talking about your installation, but, fine cherry wood cabinetry accented by Italian green marble made to look obnoxious by the finer writings of the NEC.

I wont agree with it.

Where are we gonna smoke our cigars?

Where will we be allowed to enjoy our expensive cabinetry?
You didn't write this? :( :D
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

I'm sorry George.

I wrote everything in the post.

I never edited the post.

Note the indication at the bottom that says it's been edited.
 

milwaukeesteve

Senior Member
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

When laying out our kitchen outlets, do we start our measurements from the front bull nose of the counter and work our way around to the back edge? That would mean we would always end up with an outlet on the side wall of EVERY countertop, because countertops are 2ft deep.
We start our measurements along the back wall of the countertop. 210.52(C)(1) states 'no point along the wall line'. This refers to the wall that the cabinets are mounted to. (Which direction do these cabinets face?) The 'wall line' does not refer to the walls that the cabinets butt up against, only what they are mounted to.
Again, just remember how we measure for outlets and that should answer your question.
Besides, that wall space to the left IS serviced by the outlet INSIDE that garage.
 

paul

Senior Member
Location
Snohomish, WA
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Where would you install the receptacles to make this a LEGAL installation according to the NEC?
The floor. DUH!
:roll:
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
The 'wall line' does not refer to the walls that the cabinets butt up against, only what they are mounted to.
Again, just remember how we measure for outlets and that should answer your question.
You know, common practice doesn't make it legal. Normally "no point along the wall line is greater than 24" measured horizontally from a receptacle in that space" is accomplished, just due to the fact that we seldom travel the full 24" from the connecting wall, thus the distance to the front edge of the countertop is close enough to 24" to disregard, IMO. Literally speaking, I think that you are not correct on this.

In honesty, I measure the same way you do. :D

"Measured horizontally" simply means that elevation shouldn't be considered in the measurement. Otherwise, we'd have to install receptacles at the counter level or reduce the allowed maximum distance. :D
 

milwaukeesteve

Senior Member
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

Hey George,
I think that the reference to 400.8 is not valid. That is a garage. The way you utilize the garage is to store items for counter top use. Do you actually use the blender that is stored in there to blend IN the garage? No, because you bring it out to the front of the counter. That receptacle inside the garage is what services that countertop. There fore we are not actually running cords through a doorway.

As for the 'wall line'. I referred to how the linear wall space IS measured, not 'common practice'. Again, if we measured from the front of the counter in this instance, then we would have to measure from the front of the counter EVERY time. Therefore, since counters are 24" deep, we would end up with an outlet on the sidewall of every counter. Which would not only be rediculous, but could be very difficult if that wall was an oak panel for the built in ovens and refigerators.

Another way to look at that space is as Apauling had mentioned. That it isn't 'counterspace' as we define it in 210.52.

If we do put a recept there, it would service the countertop, but is not required to be there.
 

CallMeJC

Member
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
[QB] Where would you install the receptacles to make this a LEGAL installation according to the NEC?
How about a nice piece of plugmold on the front of the base cabinet just under the countertop? I think it would blend in quite well. ;)
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
The way you utilize the garage is to store items for counter top use.

...

There fore we are not actually running cords through a doorway.
Is that in the listing of the garage, or is there a code section? :D

As for the 'wall line'. I referred to how the linear wall space IS measured, not 'common practice'.
"Is measured" by whom? What is the basis for how we measure walls?

I know this is silly, that an extra receptacle there would normally be stupid, as it would be so close to it's brother that it'd never get used. I totally agree this is going to be a silly little exchange, and I'm sure the all-mighty intent didn't expect a receptacle there. I only half think I am right, regarding the wording. :D

But you haven't convinced me I'm wrong. I think this sucker needs a re-write. :D

(Edit to remove the pieces of Steve's post I didn't use. :p )

[ May 06, 2005, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Since you guys are so smart.....

Are you going to install proximity sensors and doorstops to prevent the blender from being used when the door is shut? :D
 
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