Single phase panel improperly wired as 3 phase

[cowboyjwc]

You can run any color you want, except for a couple of exceptions mentioned. Color coding so far is only a trade practice and no where to be found in the code. You could run all black for that matter, color coding is usually just an easy way to identify what goes where.

And let me guess, this guys a combo inspector?

 

[readydave8]

You can run any color you want, except for a couple of exceptions mentioned. Color coding so far is only a trade practice and no where to be found in the code. You could run all black for that matter, color coding is usually just an easy way to identify what goes where.

And let me guess, this guys a combo inspector?

I think at one point years ago the Nec recommended color codes?

So maybe an older combo inspector could be easily confused.

 

[George Stolz]

Mike, what was your reason for using blue in the first place? :-?

 

[kwired]

Mike, Glad to read that! I guess I was thrown off by your choice of title! Maybe "Use of three phase colors in a single-phase panel" would have been better!

There are no three phase colors in the NEC.

Mike, what was your reason for using blue in the first place? :-?

Probably because there is nothing wrong with it?

I have used every color I could get a hold of for single phase and three phase circuits residential, commercial or otherwise except for white, gray and green for ungrounded conductors. There is nothing prohibiting it. It is a very easy way to distinguish which conductor is which at different ends of a raceway and requires no additional effort to mark them and prevents making mistakes of mis-marking them.

If you run a raceway with 4 blacks and 4 reds supplying 4-240 volt circuits you would need to identify which ones went together somehow. I would prefer to run 2 blacks for circuit one, 2 reds for circuit two, 2 blues for circuit 3, and 2 yellows for circuit 4, or 8 different colors so I can put all wires on the rack at the same time if I don't have multiple reels of each color.

 

[mike1061]

Mike, Glad to read that! I guess I was thrown off by your choice of title! Maybe "Use of three phase colors in a single-phase panel" would have been better!

I just used the same wording as the inspector. I couldn't think of anything better.
Thanks Mike

 

[mike1061]

Could this be an area that use's Chicago code?
I know there was talk of rewriting (C)(1) to say A phase Black, B phase Red, C phase Blue,
The way it's worded now nothing says single phase must be A Black and B Red.
It might be assumed that's what the intent was. The latest copy I have is 2008, it may have been updated after that.

18-27-210.5. Color Code for Branch Circuits.
(a) Grounded Conductor. The grounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified in accordance with 18-27- 200.6.
(b) Equipment Grounding Conductor. The equipment grounding conductor shall be identified in accordance with Section 18-27-250.119.
(c) Ungrounded Conductor(s). (1) Ungrounded conductors of branch circuits rated 150 volts to ground or less shall use the following color code: Black, Red, Blue.
The high phase of a center-tapped delta system shall be identified with red.
(2) Ungrounded conductor of branch circuits rated over 150 to ground shall use the following color code: Brown, Orange, Yellow.

Yes it is in Chicago. Again, I'm sorry I left that part out. I tried to put everything I could think of in the 1st post. Also I thought is was the same in the NEC, but after I posted the question I spent an hour or two looking for it in the NEC. I wanted to quote the proper section, but couldn't find it.
Thanks Mike

 

[mike1061]

Mike, what was your reason for using blue in the first place? :-?

If I had my choice I would use as many colors as I could on a job. IMO, you would then be able to tell a circuit by the color of the conductor. For example, you could just trace the blue circuit if you had a problem.
Another way would be, if you wanted to add a coffee grinder (3 amps) in a commercial kitchen. Near the counter you have several receptacles, and 4 circuits. You could just look and see what was connected to each circuit by the color of the conductor. If all you saw was black, you have to take the time to identify each black conductor, then see what's connected each one.

Hope I explained that well enough.
That's just something that I've had on my mind for a long time.
Thanks Mike

 

[iwire]

I have used every color I could get a hold of for single phase and three phase circuits residential, commercial or otherwise except for white, gray and green for ungrounded conductors. There is nothing prohibiting it. It is a very easy way to distinguish which conductor is which at different ends of a raceway and requires no additional effort to mark them and prevents making mistakes of mis-marking them.

In many cases you can do that, however if the building has two voltage systems, say 480Y/277 and 208Y/120 or 208Y/120 and 240 volt 3 phase you will need to pick colors and stick with them for each phase of each system.

210.5(C) Ungrounded Conductors. Where the premises wiring system has branch circuits supplied from more than one nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system at all termination, connection, and splice points. The means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means. The method utilized for conductors originating within each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment shall be documented in a manner that is readily available or shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branchcircuit distribution equipment.

 

[mike1061]

" Originally Posted by kwired View Post
I have used every color I could get a hold of for single phase and three phase circuits residential, commercial or otherwise except for white, gray and green for ungrounded conductors. There is nothing prohibiting it. It is a very easy way to distinguish which conductor is which at different ends of a raceway and requires no additional effort to mark them and prevents making mistakes of mis-marking them."

That's what I was trying to say. Plus it's easy to trouble shoot.
Thanks MIke

 

[iwire]

My personal opinion is that the 'every color under the sun' method looks very DIY I also never trust it for tracing a conductor as it often changes color at every other j-box.

 

[kwired]

In many cases you can do that, however if the building has two voltage systems, say 480Y/277 and 208Y/120 or 208Y/120 and 240 volt 3 phase you will need to pick colors and stick with them for each phase of each system.

This can be accomplished by other methods besides insulation color. It is a common practice to use insulation color but is not a requirement.

My personal opinion is that the 'every color under the sun' method looks very DIY I also never trust it for tracing a conductor as it often changes color at every other j-box.

DIY are more likely to buy one reel of wire like black and then attempt to use green and white tape for those colors because they do not want to purchase additional reels of green and white or else they will use another color besides green and white for those purposes.

Why is it unprofessional? I often have passerbys see me working in a panel with wires hanging everywhere and they ask how I know what everything is for. If they all have a different characteristic of some kind does that not help identify them? If they are all the same or have multiple conductors that are the same then you need to use extra methods to identify them which takes additional time to do. Now if you are going to have more than 10 conductors in a raceway it is harder to find enough conductors with different insulation. You can purchase conductor with tracers markings etc, but the stock at the supply house is usually just about 10 basic colors.

 

[jetlag]

I dont see where he said this is even multi wire branch circuits or if is 4 conductor cable. he could be running single strand in conduit and pulling the neutrals he needs. most likey he ran across some 3 phase cable under the table and trying to use it . There is no way inspector should pass it .the load for 2 hots on same leg can burn the neutral. running a seperate neutral is not an option it must be in the same cable or race way.He will wind up taking one of the hots on the same phase off and run a new cable for it . not sure if inspector will allow the odd wire to be in the panel, its not a good place for it to be , As far as choosing to let the blue wire stay id have to argue with inspector on that he can use the color he wants except neutral and ground colors.

 

[jetlag]

if cable was # 6 or larger her could prob use it for 240 volt to range and heat strips by taping the colors he needs for neutral and ground but smaller cant tape since inspector is already p o will flag it . LOoks like a rewire to me, sorry

 

[roger]

I dont see where he said this is even multi wire branch circuits or if is 4 conductor cable. he could be running single strand in conduit and pulling the neutrals he needs.

From post #36

Sorry but this is way of topic.
What I mean is, I have a 1 phase, 240 volt, 100 amp residential circuit breaker panel. I used Black, Red and blue wires. Some branch circuits were Black and white, some were red and white, some were blue and white. Some shared a neutral, for example, Black, red and white, or Black, blue and white. Never would I use 3 ungrounded conductors with 1 grounded conductor, in a 1 phase panel.

Roger

 

[iwire]

This can be accomplished by other methods besides insulation color. It is a common practice to use insulation color but is not a requirement.

You are certainly correct, the code allows other ways of doing it.

In my experience it takes less time to just use the insulation color than to mess around with tags, tape or labels at all termination, connection, and splice points. And in my opinion looks better and lasts the life of the conductors.

DIY are more likely to buy one reel of wire like black and then attempt to use green and white tape for those colors because they do not want to purchase additional reels of green and white or else they will use another color besides green and white for those purposes.

I agree and in my personal opinion when I see a rainbow assortment of ungrounded conductors that also looks like a DIY or EC that did not want to buy the 'right' colors.

Why is it unprofessional?

I did not say it was, I said IMPO it looks DIY.

I often have passerbys see me working in a panel with wires hanging everywhere and they ask how I know what everything is for. If they all have a different characteristic of some kind does that not help identify them?

That might make sense if we had 42 easily distinguishable colors other than white and green but we do not.

In a 42 circuit three phase 208 panel I will use Black red and blue 14 times each, I have never had any trouble identifying them.

To each their own.

If they are all the same or have multiple conductors that are the same then you need to use extra methods to identify them which takes additional time to do. Now if you are going to have more than 10 conductors in a raceway it is harder to find enough conductors with different insulation.

It has never been a problem for me and using the 'right' colors is often required at the jobs we do.

 

[George Stolz]

If I had my choice I would use as many colors as I could on a job. IMO, you would then be able to tell a circuit by the color of the conductor. For example, you could just trace the blue circuit if you had a problem.

I believe that most electricians in my area would be accustomed to being able to tell which line or phase the conductor is by it's insulation. Throwing a blue conductor in on a single phase system would likely hamper troubleshooting, IMO, not help it.

Personally, there are many times a code compliant installation requires me to defend it. I'd feel kinda silly having to defend this code compliant installation, IMO.

 

[kwired]

if cable was # 6 or larger her could prob use it for 240 volt to range and heat strips by taping the colors he needs for neutral and ground but smaller cant tape since inspector is already p o will flag it . LOoks like a rewire to me, sorry

You can not mark a #6 with green or white tape either it needs to be green or white its entire length. #4 and larger is where you can mark it for identification.

See 200.6

 

[iwire]

You can not mark a #6 with green or white tape either it needs to be green or white its entire length. #4 and larger is where you can mark it for identification.

See 200.6

He said cables, you can re-identify small cables. You cannot re-identify small conductors in pipe.

 

[justinaway1]

Code or not if you stray from industry standards you are setting the next guy up for failure. Too many times have heard that color doesnt matter, yeah if you know how its ran. Do you need to pull a neutral or not? You know what you need to do without checking everything between the source and the load. Or you can run around looking and charting ct 1&3 Blk & red, ct 5&7 blue and blk. KISS and get headaches from your hangover only.

 

[mike1061]

Thanks for the replies.
Mike