Six disconnect rule
- Thread starter doyle
- Start date
- Status
Re: Six disconnect rule
Believe it or not the issue of a 100 amp disconnect with 70 amp fuses has come up with this guy. I understand what some of you are saying about the possibility of more than six switches installed. Keep in mind that this panel has non reversing screws and the power company will not for any reason disconnect and reconnect power without an inspection in this area. You would have to drill out and retap screws hot . This is not impossible but anyone that determined would defeat almost any safeguard.
Believe it or not the issue of a 100 amp disconnect with 70 amp fuses has come up with this guy. I understand what some of you are saying about the possibility of more than six switches installed. Keep in mind that this panel has non reversing screws and the power company will not for any reason disconnect and reconnect power without an inspection in this area. You would have to drill out and retap screws hot . This is not impossible but anyone that determined would defeat almost any safeguard.
Re: Six disconnect rule
There is nothing in the code that requires you to limit anyones ability to install a 7th or 8th disconnect in the future. You have gone above and beyond the code with the non-reversable screws(and there is nothing wrong with that.) I think we are all agreed that the inspector is WRONG (and he probably has stock in Square D!).
Maybe you can convince him that anyone installing another breaker is required to pull another permit, which would let the inspector veto any more disconnects. (Your reasoning with the POCO is also very convincing).
Steve
There is nothing in the code that requires you to limit anyones ability to install a 7th or 8th disconnect in the future. You have gone above and beyond the code with the non-reversable screws(and there is nothing wrong with that.) I think we are all agreed that the inspector is WRONG (and he probably has stock in Square D!).
Maybe you can convince him that anyone installing another breaker is required to pull another permit, which would let the inspector veto any more disconnects. (Your reasoning with the POCO is also very convincing).
Steve
physis
Senior Member
Re: Six disconnect rule
Yeah, we don't want someone who could be tricked into allowing modifications that don't meet code. He'll have to be pretty savy too because you don't know what lengths people will go to if they want to make illegal electrical changes bad enough.
keep away from the service equipment perimeter fence
[ October 08, 2004, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
Yeah, we don't want someone who could be tricked into allowing modifications that don't meet code. He'll have to be pretty savy too because you don't know what lengths people will go to if they want to make illegal electrical changes bad enough.
[ October 08, 2004, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Six disconnect rule
I always say the best defense for a bad inspector is knowing the code.
1. I would ask for this violation in writing.
2. I would not be afraid of reprisals, he is already pretty bad as an inspector.
3. I would also go over his head, as this is a perfectly legal installation - as far as can be determined by your posts.
4. *** Once an inspector sees that someone will 'bully' him back - with the proper code - it has been my experience that they actually will back off in the future. "bully a bully" kind of thing.
Nothing pisses me off more than a bad inspector or installer. It does not help this industry.
Another thing- if we had to worry about someone else coming behind us and doing illegal work - we should quit this business as it is almost a garrantee that?will happen at some point in your career.
Pierre
[ October 09, 2004, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
I always say the best defense for a bad inspector is knowing the code.
1. I would ask for this violation in writing.
2. I would not be afraid of reprisals, he is already pretty bad as an inspector.
3. I would also go over his head, as this is a perfectly legal installation - as far as can be determined by your posts.
4. *** Once an inspector sees that someone will 'bully' him back - with the proper code - it has been my experience that they actually will back off in the future. "bully a bully" kind of thing.
Nothing pisses me off more than a bad inspector or installer. It does not help this industry.
Another thing- if we had to worry about someone else coming behind us and doing illegal work - we should quit this business as it is almost a garrantee that?will happen at some point in your career.
Pierre
[ October 09, 2004, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Re: Six disconnect rule
It is not necessary to 'bully' an inspector to achieve a satisfactory result to the problem. Inspectors, like electricians, make mistakes in their application of the Code.
There is no violation in the manner in which the equipment has been installed. If, after discussing the issue with the inspector, he does not understand his error, ask to speak with his supervisor or, if there is a Building Board of Appeals, present the question to the Board. Appeals Boards are generally comprised of industry professionals who volunter their time to resolve disputes between building departments and contractors.
Most people, inspectors included, are eager to learn from their mistakes, as long as you don't try to 'rub their nose in it'.
Joe Jones
It is not necessary to 'bully' an inspector to achieve a satisfactory result to the problem. Inspectors, like electricians, make mistakes in their application of the Code.
There is no violation in the manner in which the equipment has been installed. If, after discussing the issue with the inspector, he does not understand his error, ask to speak with his supervisor or, if there is a Building Board of Appeals, present the question to the Board. Appeals Boards are generally comprised of industry professionals who volunter their time to resolve disputes between building departments and contractors.
Most people, inspectors included, are eager to learn from their mistakes, as long as you don't try to 'rub their nose in it'.
Joe Jones
volt101
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: Six disconnect rule
OK Lets do the math
Since you stated that you put non-reversing screws in the bus, I am GUESSING that this panel does not have a main. Now lets do the math..
2-150/3 = 300a 300a 300a
1-100/3 = 100a 100a 100a
1-100/2 = 100a 100a 000a
---------------------------
500a 500a 400a
This was a 400 amp panel with 500 amps on it?
OK Lets do the math
Since you stated that you put non-reversing screws in the bus, I am GUESSING that this panel does not have a main. Now lets do the math..
2-150/3 = 300a 300a 300a
1-100/3 = 100a 100a 100a
1-100/2 = 100a 100a 000a
---------------------------
500a 500a 400a
This was a 400 amp panel with 500 amps on it?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Six disconnect rule
That has absolutely nothing to do with the load on the panel.
No this is a 400 amp panel with breakers in it that total 500 amps.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the load on the panel.
volt101
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: Six disconnect rule
But is there a main installed?
But is there a main installed?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Six disconnect rule
I may be wrong but I see it like this.
The bus bars in the panel are just an extension of the service conductors.
Article 100
[ October 14, 2004, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
I may be wrong but I see it like this.
The bus bars in the panel are just an extension of the service conductors.
Article 100
That being the case 230.90(A)Exception No. 3 would allow the the OCP to exceed the panel rating.
This how I see it I am intrested in how others see it.
[ October 14, 2004, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
volt101
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: Six disconnect rule
Nothing to do with loads. Just simple math.
What I am trying to express is
408.16 B Exception
230.71
230.90 A Exception 3
Need to install 400 amp main ahead of panel, or remove the extra 100 amps.
Nothing to do with loads. Just simple math.
What I am trying to express is
408.16 B Exception
230.71
230.90 A Exception 3
Need to install 400 amp main ahead of panel, or remove the extra 100 amps.
volt101
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: Six disconnect rule
O I C!!!!!
O I C!!!!!
volt102
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: Six disconnect rule
So using that logic. The electrician calculates the 4 panels loads. Each at say, 80 amps. The electrician decides to upgrade the conductors and ocpd to say, 200 each.
The calculated load is 320 amps, The breakers total is 800 amps. All in an enclosure that is to be rated for 400 amps.
Could we feed a 200 amp main breaker panel with 400 amps and just simply cange the main breaker? No
408.16 Overcurrent Protection.
(B) Power Panelboard Protection. In addition to the requirements of 408.13, a power panelboard with supply conductors that include a neutral and having more than 10 percent of its overcurrent devices protecting branch circuits rated 30 amperes or less shall be protected by an overcurrent protective device having a rating not greater than that of the panelboard . The overcurrent protective device shall be located within or at any point on the supply side of the panelboard.
Exception: This individual protection shall not be required for a power panelboard used as service equipment with multiple disconnecting means in accordance with 230.71.(states that we can have 6 disconnects)
I do not see were 230.90 modifies the panelboard protection requirement. It only modifies the service's protection.
So using that logic. The electrician calculates the 4 panels loads. Each at say, 80 amps. The electrician decides to upgrade the conductors and ocpd to say, 200 each.
The calculated load is 320 amps, The breakers total is 800 amps. All in an enclosure that is to be rated for 400 amps.
Could we feed a 200 amp main breaker panel with 400 amps and just simply cange the main breaker? No
408.16 Overcurrent Protection.
(B) Power Panelboard Protection. In addition to the requirements of 408.13, a power panelboard with supply conductors that include a neutral and having more than 10 percent of its overcurrent devices protecting branch circuits rated 30 amperes or less shall be protected by an overcurrent protective device having a rating not greater than that of the panelboard . The overcurrent protective device shall be located within or at any point on the supply side of the panelboard.
Exception: This individual protection shall not be required for a power panelboard used as service equipment with multiple disconnecting means in accordance with 230.71.(states that we can have 6 disconnects)
I do not see were 230.90 modifies the panelboard protection requirement. It only modifies the service's protection.
volt102
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: Six disconnect rule
I think Iwire has nailed too...
I think Iwire has nailed too...
- Status