Sizing Service Conductors Correctly

[dnem]

I wasn't talking about changing the lugs. The lab temp rating is based on the weakest link in the panel, which usually is the lug. But if you change the lug you just end up with a panel with no UL listing.

No not necessarily.

I can change lugs on many panel boards, a common reason to change lugs is from single barrel lugs to stacker lugs.

Like these

What if the lug wasn't the only reason that the panel had the lower temp rating ? Replacing the lug only leaves a question mark.

Exactly what Jim was pointing out, installing higher temp rated lugs will not raise the temp rating of the equipment.

Since the lug is part of the breaker, you can't change the lugs on the breaker, you can only replace the breaker.

You don't do much commercial work do you?

Yes you can change the lugs on the breaker.

The reason this has to be done sometimes is to get the right lugs for the conductors being used.

Say I have a 400 amp breaker, it may have arrived with lugs rated for one 600 Kcmil each. However I might chose to run three sets of 1/0 copper. To do that I have to get lugs to accept that combination.

The breaker temp rating of the breaker applies to the whole breaker including the lugs.

It may or may not.

There is no separation between the breaker and the lugs on the breaker.

Often there is a separation there is a breaker with a rating and a lug or terminal with a rating.

Keep in mind that a breaker may be used without lugs at all, it may be bolted right to bus bars at one or both ends.

The pictures of lugs that your posting would never be installed on 100, 150, or 200 amp breakers. And if installed in a main lug only panel, they still are both lug and termination. The lug is the termination.

You're getting confused because you're not reading the whole post and then concluding that I "don't do much commercial work".

I actually don't do Commercial work any more, I'm too busy inspecting it.

I'm not concerned with large gear on this thread. Go back to the beginning and read what's been posted. You'll see what this thread is about. Have you seen a 100 amp breaker with removable lugs ? Your pictures belong on another thread. You're not replying to the subject of the thread.

I have yet to see prints for large gear that doesn't include wire size specs. I'm talking about 100, 150, or 200 amp small Commercial jobs that are just panel changes or possibly panel and minimal other work. These small jobs are where newer contractors get "their teeth cut".

If I would rather discuss this subject in a public forum rather than one on one with a contractor after giving them a red tag, then that's what I'll do.

Please read everything before you post on a thread.

David

 

[izak]

wow
talk about inspectors getting a big head

we have an inspector in my jurisdiction that often requires ECs to go WAY above and beyond the NEC
without any city ordinance on paper and without any justification other than... thats the way i want it

the people on this forum are VERY knowlegeable and are capable of putting in their work to code

some may consider it rude to act that way with such people

 

[dnem]

wow
talk about inspectors getting a big head

we have an inspector in my jurisdiction that often requires ECs to go WAY above and beyond the NEC
without any city ordinance on paper and without any justification other than... thats the way i want it

the people on this forum are VERY knowlegeable and are capable of putting in their work to code

some may consider it rude to act that way with such people

People on this forum are a combination of all sorts, just like everywhere else in life. Very knowledgeable people intermixed with people at various stages on the learning curve. Just scan down the list of topics posted daily and you'll see a huge diversity.

If you think you already know so much that you can't benefit by reading this thread, then don't read it. I have seen the faces of those that receive a red tag for not being as knowledgeable as you are. I don't get any pleasure knowing how much redoing the job will cost them.

I don't advocate laying out every detail for contractors that are responsible for themselves. I just gave an idea of where to begin the process. How to put together a simple calculation for a plain uncomplicated 100, 150, or 200 amp service. It shows the basic difference between Residential and Commercial/Industrial. It points in the right direction.

Are you afraid of others starting to understand what you already know. That would cause more competition for the higher profit jobs, wouldn't it.

If I choose to bring up what I see every week, why is that a problem ?

It's a shame that some people are always looking for a way to sour a positive message.

David

 

[izak]

no no no

look
we all want to learn
i NEED to learn every DAY

however, there is a certain amount of TACT needed
i have learned that, if nothing else...
i have no desire to know something about my trade and hide it from someone else...
i am just saying your approach may be a little .... counterproductive

thats all

 

[iwire]

Have you seen a 100 amp breaker with removable lugs ?

Yes, often.

GE Type TED have removable lugs down to 15 amps.

And most manufacturers make a breaker that is equivalent to the TED.

I ask you this, when was the last time you saw a 100 amp breaker that was not rated 75 C?

Do you have the UL white book, it has a lot of good breaker info.

 

[George Stolz]

David, I can understand your frustration, and your desire to correct improper installations before they happen, for the contractor's sake.

I recommend that you look closely at all the lugs you come into contact with for the next several weeks. I believe you'll see (as I saw the first time this was brought to my attention) that many of them are rated for 75?. I'm stressing some homework before the next step, because if you take the next step before doing some homework, and you turn out wrong, the next step will make you look foolish, and we all hate to broadcast our mistakes to the world (except, of course, in the privacy and comfort of an online forum!)

If the problem remains that guys are automatically sizing to 75? even if they have a 60? rated lug, and you see this happening, (and are darned sure) I would consider drafting a form letter to be mailed to every EC in the area, stating the problem and bringing some attention to the issue.

I'd make it clear that you are enforcing the NEC as written, and that there is no local amendment regarding the issue. Provide a couple examples of products and scenarios that are getting tagged. Finish it off with a statement that this letter is being sent to aid the EC's to prevent future violations, and that there will be no exceptions to enforcement of the rules.

That's my opinion of a decent solution to make you feel like you've contributed and helped them out, while making efficient use of your time.

My 2?.

 

[dnem]

however, there is a certain amount of TACT needed

I agree
And that's why people should think before they speak

You don't do much commercial work do you?

I don't expect the inspector to lead me by the hand, I learn the rules and other ECs should as well.

wow
talk about inspectors getting a big head

How about saying some of the above lines to the next inspector that comes out to look at your job.

If he tries pointing out something that he sees as an issue that he would like to discuss, just say to him, "I don't expect the inspector to lead me by the hand".

If he questions the lab listing of a piece of equipment, just say, "You don't do much commercial work do you ?"

And if he doesn't like your comment just tell him he's getting a big head.

some may consider it rude to act that way with such people

But dealing with rude people is nothing new for me. In my day to day inspections I have found that the people that violate the code the most are usually the rudest ones of all. What I don't do is stand around to take abuse. If a contractor wants to talk, we talk. If he's looking for somebody to attack, I hand him the red tag and tell him to call us for a reinspection when everything is code compliant.

If you and iwire are just looking for someone to take shots at, then I have nothing else to say to you. My thread is for those that find it helpful and/or interesting. If you don't think it's of value to you, just ignore it.

David

 

[roger]

Dnem, maybe you should heed your own advice and you may learn something from those replying to your posts.

Otherwise, just keep thinking your way is the only way, and impose it on those in your little area of the world.

Roger

 

[dlhoule]

I do not want to be led by the hand. I do not want to deal with arrogant Inspectors.

I do want my jobs to pass inspections. If an inspector or anyone else can give me advice or an advance notice of a problem, I welcome that advice, because I am the one who chooses to accept or reject the advice. If I fail an inspection I expect to see Art. # for perceived problem.

I also expect that the inspector would fail me for anything unsafe that isn't code compliant.

 

[dnem]

I recommend that you look closely at all the lugs you come into contact with for the next several weeks. I believe you'll see (as I saw the first time this was brought to my attention) that many of them are rated for 75?. I'm stressing some homework before the next step

I already did my homework. My thread is the result of conversations with the other ESIs in my department and comparing what we've been seeing. There's a lot of foreign electrical equipment showing up in Ohio that is either built to minimum standards or has no lab listing at all. As a building department employee, I can not take any stand on the source of any equipment. I can't favor or exclude equipment from any country or manufacturer. I can only enforce the NEC and the lab testing listings.

Most installers don't see what's going on. They're familiar with their local supplier or two and the usual equipment that they order.

We're dealing with contractors that have told us that they're bidding for equipment in other countries over the internet. We do inspections and see stuff we've never seen before. There is an ESI in my department that has been an inspector since the 60's. He says he hasn't seen this stuff before. Some of this stuff doesn't have any words in English printed on them at all.

We have a longer inspection at those jobs as we check for lab listing stickers and temp ratings. Now that a few contractors have started the trend at ferreting out low ball priced supplies, others are following them. Now that copper prices have skyrocketed, more contractors are taking to the internet to shop.

When we red tag an unlisted item, many times the contractor is quite upset because the bid on equipment from other countries is not returnable. So this thread is also a "heads up" to other municipality ESIs. When we reject installed equipment, it shows up at the next town.

I'm stressing some homework before the next step, because if you take the next step before doing some homework, and you turn out wrong, the next step will make you look foolish, and we all hate to broadcast our mistakes to the world (except, of course, in the privacy and comfort of an online forum!)

As you know from other threads here, I don't have a problem admitting when I'm wrong. If I make a mistake, I'll admit it and even apologize.

If the problem remains that guys are automatically sizing to 75? even if they have a 60? rated lug, and you see this happening, (and are darned sure) I would consider drafting a form letter to be mailed to every EC in the area, stating the problem and bringing some attention to the issue.

That's a decision that the chief will have to make in my department. But even if he does draft and send a letter, that only reaches the couple hundred contractors that are registered in our county. A thread on this forum reaches a couple hundred viewers within the first day alone.

That's my opinion of a decent solution to make you feel like you've contributed and helped them out, while making efficient use of your time.

My 2?.

I like the efficiency of posting something here that gets hundreds of hits plus feedback. As long as the participants are respectful, the dialog brings out thoughts and angles from dozens of people not just the chief of one department. The give and take is more valuable to every reader and allows the initial poster to get feed back and learn and grow as well.

David

 

[dnem]

Dnem, maybe you should heed your own advice and you may learn something from those replying to your posts.

Otherwise, just keep thinking your way is the only way, and impose it on those in your little area of the world.

Roger

You apparently have some unresolved anger toward your local inspector and are looking for a "stand in" that you can attack and vent your frustrations.

I would suggest you try calmly approaching your inspector and trying to discuss your disagreement without getting upset or resorting to namecalling. You might be surprised to find out he's actually not a bad person and can be reasonable.

If he does end up being an idiot, then at least you've tried.

David

 

[roger]

David, it's quite the contrary, the local inspections department and myself have an excelent relationship and mutual respect for each other, this is something I think you are missing, you seem to think you are the only one in the know and owe no respect to your local contractors or those trying to help you on this board.

The local inspectors and myself work together beyond the "inspector /electrician" everyday relationship, we discuss code issues for testing apprentices and journeymen in this area as well as interpretations we may both have.

They even write letters commending electricians who make their job easier, ( Click Here for an Example) something that probably has never occured to you to do. I hope I'm wrong, but it seems that you would probably be more apt to try to belittle a contractor than praise him for a job well done.


Roger

 

[George Stolz]

I already did my homework.

...

We do inspections and see stuff we've never seen before. There is an ESI in my department that has been an inspector since the 60's. He says he hasn't seen this stuff before. Some of this stuff doesn't have any words in English printed on them at all.

Maybe this point has escaped the attention of most of the posters in this thread. It escaped my attention until this post. I've only seen name-brand (listed) equipment on jobs, so IMO the majority of name-brand equipment carry 75? terminations.

I also misunderstood your intention in starting this thread. I thought you were seeking ideas in getting your area up to speed, not as a warning to the rest of the country that unlisted gear is making it's presence known, so we should be on the lookout. I think this may have been lost in translation too.

When we reject installed equipment, it shows up at the next town.

Why would they rip the equipment out if the conductors are undersized?
Can you explain this better?

If I make a mistake, I'll admit it and even apologize.

I am aware of this, and my hat's off to you for this positive character trait. (I'm not being sarcastic.)

Everybody, I believe a lack of complete information might have started some conclusions to be drawn. It would be cool for everyone to review the thread and see if perhaps we can settle down a bit over some of the heated exchanges.

It seems to me that perhaps David is seeing things we haven't seen before, hence the confusion, IMO.

One thing I am still confused about is why someone would bother to go to the headache of purchasing wildly foreign equipment for such small services, where the equipment is readily available in brand-name for not very much money? That's the part that keeps me from buying into your story, David. If we were talking about 800A+ service modules people were getting on the cheap, it would be more plausible. It's hard to envision someone going to all the trouble for unlisted parts on a 100A service, IMO.

 

[dnem]

When we reject installed equipment, it shows up at the next town.

Why would they rip the equipment out if the conductors are undersized?
Can you explain this better?

The conductor sizing is a completely separate issue from the gear listing issue. This thread started as information I was posting about service wire size. It has since changed to a discussion about equipment temp rating. In discussing this later subject of equipment temp rating, I brought up this situation. Lugs sized for #1 or smaller that are lab rated for only 60˚C can and do pass lab testing and are approved for use. The end result is that everyone should be aware that lugs sized for #1 or smaller are lab rated for 60˚C unless labeled otherwise.

In the wire sizing portion of the conversation, contractors are repulling larger wire or changing breaker sizes to conform to Table310.16.

In the equipment listing portion of the conversation, contractors are removing gear that has no listing.

I also misunderstood your intention in starting this thread. I thought you were seeking ideas in getting your area up to speed, not as a warning to the rest of the country that unlisted gear is making it's presence known, so we should be on the lookout. I think this may have been lost in translation too.

You didn't misunderstand.

The purpose of this thread was not as a warning about unlisted gear or foreign gear. I was posting information on using the right wire sizing Table and how that Table should be used. The gear issue is something that was added later.

One thing I am still confused about is why someone would bother to go to the headache of purchasing wildly foreign equipment for such small services, where the equipment is readily available in brand-name for not very much money? That's the part that keeps me from buying into your story, David. If we were talking about 800A+ service modules people were getting on the cheap, it would be more plausible. It's hard to envision someone going to all the trouble for unlisted parts on a 100A service, IMO.

From what we have learned from the contractors that are involved, they are buying large quantities in bulk over the internet. The order might include large quantities of 12 & 14 gauge Romex, various gauge sizes and spool lengths of THHN, and then a shopping list of various other items of all kinds and sizes [including whatever panels they commonly use]. The material [usually] comes from overseas in large boxes on pallets or just shrink wrapped on pallets. The discounts are substantial.

We take no stand on where contractors purchase their equipment. We just check for NEC compliance and lab listing labeling. We have no local codes. If any equipment from any source is not labeled for temp rating, we assume lab testing minimums, which has already been "beat to death" on this thread. If there's no lab labeling of any kind, we won't approve the equipment and the contractor is responsible for either proving that it is listed and installed according to listing or he must remove the equipment.

David

 

[dnem]

George,

Let me ask you a question about a decision you would make. I'm going to put you in the situation of a contractor that works in the county jurisdiction of the building department that I work in.

You have been doing residential work for years, you and your guys have very little commercial experience but you're trying to move in that direction. Your most immediate problem is that large developers are taking over a bigger and bigger percentage of the local land being developed and they are playing hard ball with the bid prices, squeezing money out of the subs.

You negotiate with one large builder and get beat down lower and lower. But the builder is very stable and known to always pay their bills so you cut your profits and meet their price demand. If you can get this contract, you'll have consistent work for your guys and develop a stable cash flow that you can use as a spring board to bid more profitable work. You sign a contract for a development of 400 houses with that builder.

You're contacted by another electrical contractor who has purchased a huge lot of various electrical items over the internet. He has a bunch of money tied up and has to unload a portion of the goods for his cost. You come look at what he has and see that you can get Romex for half price. Panels for your upcoming 400 houses are $30 per panel cheaper than the lowest price you can find elsewhere. You can save $12,000 on the panels alone. You might make a few bucks on that development after all. The equipment has lab approval but no listing for 75˚C.

Do you buy from him ?

This contractor begins to install these panels in these houses, which catches my attention. I discuss the situation with my fellow inspectors and we all agree that Table310.15(B)(2)(a) has no restrictions for 60˚C panels. The installations are passed and released to the power company.

As I mentioned before, this contractor is trying to increase his percentage of Commercial work. He gets a job replacing a 100a 120/240 single split phase main panel in a small coffee shop. It's located in the center of a very old village in the county that's known for its grandfathered horrible electrical equipment and installations thruout the village. Any work done there is a huge upgrade from what is taken out but .....
He puts one of his same panels in the coffee shop and sizes the conductors as he always has.

Table310.16 does care about the temp rating of the equipment and his installation is wrong. I red tag the job and point him to Table310.16 and tell him to forget about Table310.15(B)(2)(a) until he gets back into the housing development. Altho I warn him about being careful to go by the panel listing when using Table310.16, when I come back the #2 Al is gone and a #1 Al is in its place.

Another red tag because his #1 Al is only good for 85a in 60˚C rated lugs/breakers. He needs to pass the 91a barrier.

This was the latest failure among many that I have had to write up for various contractors. And after this latest one, I started this thread.

David

 

[JohnE]

Dave,

Your OP asks for comments. I think Bob hit it right when he said something like "EC better know NEC if he is going to be responsible for design".

Seems to me that would be your stance, also. It's my stance.

My suggestion to your EC's is that they be proactive in keeping up with NEC articles which apply to their installations. Maybe they should join our forum. :wink:

It's not your job to educate them, just a cause and effect of the inspection process.

I agree it's difficult to red tag an installation which is done in a nice manner for something such as wire size, but that is part of the risk of being a contractor. Know your job, do it right, and take responsibility for what might go wrong. If you are unsure of something, there are resources to find the answer. Or consult with the inspector to find his interpretation. This may not always be possible, but often is.

My thoughts.

 

[dnem]

My suggestion to your EC's is that they be proactive in keeping up with NEC articles which apply to their installations. Maybe they should join our forum. :wink:

Maybe some are here already. :shock:
Hopefully this thread will make some contractors aware that they need to be more proactive in taking responsibility for understanding how to install according to the NEC.

It's not your job to educate them

I know
But I think it's abetter option than failing inspections after the installation is done.

David

 

[George Stolz]

David, your second-to-last post makes your predicament clearer, thanks for that.

There's three things I see.

1. As part of your red-tag, you should make yourself very, very clear. Perhaps writing "conductors must be 1/0 AL or equilvalent based on the 60? terminations" would mean the conductors would be replaced once. It still stinks, but it happens.

I can't count the number of times I've failed for legitimate items that I thought were bunk because the inspector did not clearly state the violation. You know how that goes. Chicken-scratch handwriting and a barely intelligible report from the superintendent, or the guy sweeping the floor, or whatever, and pretty soon an irate (and entirely misguided) installer's on the phone.

2. Don't let your sympathy get the better of you. Do what you want to; write a letter, hold a free seminar, stand on the street corner with a sign.

But in the end the installer should be paying attention when they work. If they don't they pay.

3. Someone needs to write a proposal to tweak 310.15(B)(6) to specify 75? terminations.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

George,

Someone needs to write a proposal to tweak 310.15(B)(6) to specify 75? terminations.

Why?
Don

 

[George Stolz]

A question before my reply:

Does 110.14(C)(1)(b) guarantee that terminations must be rated 75?? If the equipment is not listed, then it could have 60? terminations over 100 amps, right?

I've always assumed that 310.15(B)(6) was giving us a few amps leeway off the 75? columns, they are small but reasonable concessions. Giving away 50A on a 200A service with AL seems outside that reasoning, doesn't it?