small appliance branch circuits
- Thread starter michael
- Start date
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bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: small appliance branch circuits
The code only requires two small appliance branch-circuits. There is not a maximum permitted. If I were to wire to your description, I would have a dedicated circuit for the GD, DW, and refrigerator, 2 kitchen receptacle circuits, 1 for the breakfast area and 1 for the dining room. Remember you GFCI requirements as well.
The code only requires two small appliance branch-circuits. There is not a maximum permitted. If I were to wire to your description, I would have a dedicated circuit for the GD, DW, and refrigerator, 2 kitchen receptacle circuits, 1 for the breakfast area and 1 for the dining room. Remember you GFCI requirements as well.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: small appliance branch circuits
Bryan,
Are the dishwasher and garbage disposal permitted to be on the two or more 20 amp small appliance circuits?
Don
Bryan,
Are the dishwasher and garbage disposal permitted to be on the two or more 20 amp small appliance circuits?
Don
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: small appliance branch circuits
Don I would have to say no. Bryan I am from florida also,Pasco ,hillsboro county area.In Pasco county we have to dedicate d/w,disp,ref
the 2 appliance circuits are split between the countertop receptacles,and we can hit the dinning nook receptacles with either a dedicated 20 amp circuit for these or hit them either before or after the gfci device..........check with local ahj for their requirements
Don I would have to say no. Bryan I am from florida also,Pasco ,hillsboro county area.In Pasco county we have to dedicate d/w,disp,ref
the 2 appliance circuits are split between the countertop receptacles,and we can hit the dinning nook receptacles with either a dedicated 20 amp circuit for these or hit them either before or after the gfci device..........check with local ahj for their requirements
s wayne cook
Member
- Location
- Virginia
Re: small appliance branch circuits
Don,
I never really looked to see if it was permissible to do as you ask, primarily because I would wire similar to what "bphgravity" describes. But in casually researching, with the possible excption of the provisions of 210-23(a), (99NEC), I could find no prohibition.
What is true?
Wayne
Don,
I never really looked to see if it was permissible to do as you ask, primarily because I would wire similar to what "bphgravity" describes. But in casually researching, with the possible excption of the provisions of 210-23(a), (99NEC), I could find no prohibition.
What is true?
Wayne
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: small appliance branch circuits
210.52 (B) 1-2 & (C) 1-4 These circuits can absolutely not serve anything other than counter use, standard wall locations, dining room, gas appliance ignition, and refrigeration receptacles.
210.52 (B) 1-2 & (C) 1-4 These circuits can absolutely not serve anything other than counter use, standard wall locations, dining room, gas appliance ignition, and refrigeration receptacles.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: small appliance branch circuits
My point is that the code minimum for Michael's instllation is the two required 20 amp small appliance branch circuits and an additional circuit(s) for the disposal dishwasher. I agree that I would install more circuts than that for the application, but I think that the question is asking for the code minimum.
Don
My point is that the code minimum for Michael's instllation is the two required 20 amp small appliance branch circuits and an additional circuit(s) for the disposal dishwasher. I agree that I would install more circuts than that for the application, but I think that the question is asking for the code minimum.
Don
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: small appliance branch circuits
Don, I feel 210.52(B) prevents the DW/DP from being on the 2 small aplliance circuits. This is why I specified that there is not a maximum allowed in the kitchen. Because of the confusing language of this section, I find many electricians are under the impression that only 2 circuits are allowed in kitchen. It is important to understand exactly what is alowed on the 2 required though!
Don, I feel 210.52(B) prevents the DW/DP from being on the 2 small aplliance circuits. This is why I specified that there is not a maximum allowed in the kitchen. Because of the confusing language of this section, I find many electricians are under the impression that only 2 circuits are allowed in kitchen. It is important to understand exactly what is alowed on the 2 required though!
s wayne cook
Member
- Location
- Virginia
Re: small appliance branch circuits
electricmanscott,
Scott, don't get me wrong I neither advocate or would install GD/DW on the two requred appliance branch circuits.
But, show me the wording that expressly prohibits this please.
Don, I know I'm veering off of the point you were making. Sorry
Wayne
electricmanscott,
Scott, don't get me wrong I neither advocate or would install GD/DW on the two requred appliance branch circuits.
But, show me the wording that expressly prohibits this please.
Don, I know I'm veering off of the point you were making. Sorry
Wayne
Re: small appliance branch circuits
Looks to me like 210.52(B)(1) notes 210.52(A) [ spacing ] and 210.52(C) [ countertops ].
It also permits refrigeration equipment on the 2 or more Small Appliance circuit.
Although, not in the NEC, I think, small appliance refers to appliance which is many times un-plugged after use and stored elsewhere until the next use where-as Appliance Outlets of 210.50(C) refers to larger appliances not normaly un-plugged after each use, such as GD's and DW's. Also some GD's and DW's are designed for ' hard wiring '.
Looks to me like 210.52(B)(1) notes 210.52(A) [ spacing ] and 210.52(C) [ countertops ].
It also permits refrigeration equipment on the 2 or more Small Appliance circuit.
Although, not in the NEC, I think, small appliance refers to appliance which is many times un-plugged after use and stored elsewhere until the next use where-as Appliance Outlets of 210.50(C) refers to larger appliances not normaly un-plugged after each use, such as GD's and DW's. Also some GD's and DW's are designed for ' hard wiring '.
james wuebker
Senior Member
- Location
- Iowa
Re: small appliance branch circuits
torint, your instructor was probably right a long time ago, but in these days homes have up to 3/4 hp on thier GD. These will draw some current so I believe that GD should be on it's own circuit.
bye now
torint, your instructor was probably right a long time ago, but in these days homes have up to 3/4 hp on thier GD. These will draw some current so I believe that GD should be on it's own circuit.
bye now
Re: small appliance branch circuits
My dishwasher and garbage disposal are on the same circuit. It's a 20 amp circuit feeding a 20 amp outlet, with the top half of the outlet switched and the bottom half on. Both appliances connect via grounded cords/plugs.
Can anyone tell me if this is within code now, or if it ever was.
My dishwasher and garbage disposal are on the same circuit. It's a 20 amp circuit feeding a 20 amp outlet, with the top half of the outlet switched and the bottom half on. Both appliances connect via grounded cords/plugs.
Can anyone tell me if this is within code now, or if it ever was.
s wayne cook
Member
- Location
- Virginia
Re: small appliance branch circuits
To gwz2,
I was looking for your name in your profile. Wow, you've been at this stuff forever. Glad to have your experince available to us.
I think this is one of those cases where the literal wording does not mirror the intent of the code. Common sense dictates seperate and additional circuits, especially for the dishwasher.
But I think I could make a strong argument that connection to the two required appliance branch circuits is not experessely prohibited. If the true definition of a "small appliance" is as you state, but is not in or referenced directly by the NEC, I doubt you could use this argument.
In the absence of a direct prohibition via code wording, if I was the inspector I think I would cite 90-4, in particular the second sentence. (Is that playing both sides of the fence or what?)
Kind of strange, in all my years, I've never heard this argument before. This leaves me leary that I have flat out missed something and somebody is going to cut me to the bone. I guess we shall see!
Wayne
To gwz2,
I was looking for your name in your profile. Wow, you've been at this stuff forever. Glad to have your experince available to us.
I think this is one of those cases where the literal wording does not mirror the intent of the code. Common sense dictates seperate and additional circuits, especially for the dishwasher.
But I think I could make a strong argument that connection to the two required appliance branch circuits is not experessely prohibited. If the true definition of a "small appliance" is as you state, but is not in or referenced directly by the NEC, I doubt you could use this argument.
In the absence of a direct prohibition via code wording, if I was the inspector I think I would cite 90-4, in particular the second sentence. (Is that playing both sides of the fence or what?)
Kind of strange, in all my years, I've never heard this argument before. This leaves me leary that I have flat out missed something and somebody is going to cut me to the bone. I guess we shall see!
Wayne
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: small appliance branch circuits
Wayne, read the articles that I have listed. It is very clear what is allowed on the two small appliance circuits. Dw and disp are not.
Wayne, read the articles that I have listed. It is very clear what is allowed on the two small appliance circuits. Dw and disp are not.
s wayne cook
Member
- Location
- Virginia
Re: small appliance branch circuits
Scott,
210.52(B)(2) says no other outlets on the circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1).
210.52(B)(1) says outlets in the kitchen, etc., shall be served by two or more small appliance branch circuits.
If, and this is the if I can't answer, you assume that the garbage disposal or dishwasher is a small appliance, and they are cord and plug connected, and the receptacle is in the kitchen, why is this not legal?
Please don't confuse my argument for arguments sake with what I think of this idea. It would be a stupid installation done this way, but literally interpreted I don't think the code prohibits this.
Wayne
Scott,
210.52(B)(2) says no other outlets on the circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1).
210.52(B)(1) says outlets in the kitchen, etc., shall be served by two or more small appliance branch circuits.
If, and this is the if I can't answer, you assume that the garbage disposal or dishwasher is a small appliance, and they are cord and plug connected, and the receptacle is in the kitchen, why is this not legal?
Please don't confuse my argument for arguments sake with what I think of this idea. It would be a stupid installation done this way, but literally interpreted I don't think the code prohibits this.
Wayne
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: small appliance branch circuits
wayne,
They can't be on the small appliance branch circuits, because the outlets for the dishwasher and garbage disposal are not outlets covered by 210.52(A) or (C). Only the outlets coverd by these two sections and the refrigeration equipment outlet are permitted on the small appliance branch circuits.
Don
wayne,
They can't be on the small appliance branch circuits, because the outlets for the dishwasher and garbage disposal are not outlets covered by 210.52(A) or (C). Only the outlets coverd by these two sections and the refrigeration equipment outlet are permitted on the small appliance branch circuits.
Don
Re: small appliance branch circuits
Wayne,
I'm to lazy to go back thru the years of IAEI, EC&M, EC magazines and the TCR, TCD, ROP, and ROC 's, but I,m sure that the small applicance did have similar comments in some of the documents.
HOW-EVER, the inspector must enforce the letter and spirit of the NEC when the NEC is clear, not what the inspector thinks or would like to see.
As for 90.4, Indiana has amended to read as follows:
"Requirements covering enforcement, granting of variances, and approval of alternate methods or materials are covered in the Indiana statutes and 675 IAC 12, the General Administrative Rules of the Commission."
The IAC is the Indiana Administration Code.
Sure wish 90.4 was not amended.
Wayne,
I'm to lazy to go back thru the years of IAEI, EC&M, EC magazines and the TCR, TCD, ROP, and ROC 's, but I,m sure that the small applicance did have similar comments in some of the documents.
HOW-EVER, the inspector must enforce the letter and spirit of the NEC when the NEC is clear, not what the inspector thinks or would like to see.
As for 90.4, Indiana has amended to read as follows:
"Requirements covering enforcement, granting of variances, and approval of alternate methods or materials are covered in the Indiana statutes and 675 IAC 12, the General Administrative Rules of the Commission."
The IAC is the Indiana Administration Code.
Sure wish 90.4 was not amended.
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