Small Appliance Circuits in 10 million dollar home

[Gary11734]

You are designing a 10 million dollar custom home.

You have come to the kitchen and see you need two small appliance circuits, per code.

Once you get each circuit to the kitchen counter, how do you distribute the circuits?

Do you start with one circuit and keep hitting the next receptacle adjacent, and do the same with the other, or do you alternate the circuits so each receptacle is different in the circuit to the one adjacent?

Why would do anything but stack the outlets? Alternating is a complete waste of time, but they are in thousands of drawings and installation of homes. And, in some instances, the engineer of record will not let you change it.

 

[peter d]

Price doesn't really change anything in my opinion. I don't see the point in alternating either.

 

[Gary11734]

Price doesn't really change anything in my opinion. I don't see the point in alternating either.

That is what I've been trying to get to. Why would we ever alternate the receptacles? Who came up with this idea? It is a complete waste of time and maintenance nightmare compared to staking all together. But we see it on the drawings and some engineers ask for it.

 

[peter d]

That is what I've been trying to get to. Why would we ever alternate the receptacles? Who came up with this idea? It is a complete waste of time and maintenance nightmare compared to staking all together. But we see it on the drawings and some engineers ask for it.

I never put any faith or weight into drawings or what I hear from engineers. Most engineers have no practical experience with electrical work.

 

[augie47]

No requirement to alternate.
10 mil homes are as rare as hens teeth in this area but I would hate to think one is designed with only (2) SABCs.

 

[growler]

That is what I've been trying to get to. Why would we ever alternate the receptacles? Who came up with this idea? It is a complete waste of time and maintenance nightmare compared to staking all together. But we see it on the drawings and some engineers ask for it.

That idea of alternating receptacles has been around forever. That's how I was taught many, many years ago. I have never bothered.

I have no idea who thought of it first but I know i goes back at least to the 1970s. People always trying to invent a better mouse trap.

In reality you have no idea where people will set their appliances so you can overload a circuit either way.

 

[growler]

No requirement to alternate.
10 mil homes are as rare as hens teeth in this area but I would hate to think one is designed with only (2) SABCs.

If they can afford to spend 10 mil on a house the electrician should try to get his share and sell everything he can.

 

[Gary11734]

I never put any faith or weight into drawings or what I hear from engineers. Most engineers have no practical experience with electrical work.

My question here is. Why would the Engineer think that alternating these two circuits was good?

Nobody has tried to answer this, yet.

The Engineer is educated and a lot smarter than me. So, why would he do this? Can someone answer this question?
The Engineer had to be using logic to come to his conclusion because it's harder to draw the alternate way as opposed to the stacked way.
He had to believe that it was a better installation to alternate.


And I asked all engineers that would put this on the drawings and they came up with the same answer. This drove me nuts when I first saw it as a young apprentice. So, I asked!

 

[winnie]

10 million dollar home? If you are trying to do NEC minimum to be the low bidder, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Do whatever you can convince the homeowner is a fancy ass better than best design, and charge accordingly.

If I had the money for a $10 million home, then each receptacle in the kitchen would be on its own circuit. Not because each receptacle is likely to need a full 20A circuit (I mean, I can do a load calculation), but because at that level circuits are cheap but the time to decide which receptacle to plug an appliance into is expensive, and why not eliminate the worry of appliances sharing circuits and popping a breaker when you run the microwave _and_ the coffee machine.

You are also looking at customers who will want to entertain, and run things like commercial appliances for events.

My pay grade is lower and so in my real kitchen receptacles share circuits...but my house was only 1.25% of $10 million....

-Jon

 

[rambojoe]

i bet most here do the same-
share the nook with maybe one or two counter tops (who plugs anything in the nook? or the dinig room? well, maybe...)

one lone giffy loaded to the island (or one from fridge if, ahem, NOT a zillion doolar with dedicated sub zeros- i tend to send line to a island)

and the rest... its easy to imagine where i would plug in a compressor or a welder in the kitchen so, its pretty obvious..

 

[rambojoe]

winnie reminded me of when i first started out... the guy who trained me would spend a week (yes, week) riiging up different lights,cans and trims above a wall with art that was temped and painted- just for the customer to choose which configuration they liked. and they PAID for that time!!

think very rich people in marin and SF... i hated doing it but the boss loved it when ol jay would turn in billing... i met quite a few celebs in the process so that was kinda cool...

 

[Gary11734]

OK, here is the answer I get back from the Engineers that I talked to that alternated the outlets.

They have the belief that they know where the homeowner is going to distribute the appliances.

It's just that easy.

I don't agree with this premise, but that is the answer I always get if I ask them.

 

[480sparky]

Sorry, but a $10mil home is gotta get more than just two SABCs.

OK, here is the answer I get back from the Engineers that I talked to that alternated the outlets.

They have the belief that they know where the homeowner is going to distribute the appliances.

It's just that easy.

I don't agree with this premise, but that is the answer I always get if I ask them.

I've been down that road before. The HO ends up plugging into every other receptacle as to 'not overload things'. They end up plugging everything into the same circuit. I've even done this with 3-ph commercial kitchens, putting GP receps down the wall A-B-C-A-B-C-A-B-C..... and the staff plugs into every third circuit.

 

[Microwatt]

You are designing a 10 million dollar custom home.

You have come to the kitchen and see you need two small appliance circuits, per code.

Once you get each circuit to the kitchen counter, how do you distribute the circuits?

Do you start with one circuit and keep hitting the next receptacle adjacent, and do the same with the other, or do you alternate the circuits so each receptacle is different in the circuit to the one adjacent?

Why would do anything but stack the outlets? Alternating is a complete waste of time, but they are in thousands of drawings and installation of homes. And, in some instances, the engineer of record will not let you change it.

You likely aren't in North Dakota but if you were 3 SABC are required and you must alternate circuits for counter top receptacles, no matter the size of the dwelling. 24.1-06-02-10.4

 

[steve66]

My question here is. Why would the Engineer think that alternating these two circuits was good?

Nobody has tried to answer this, yet.

I'll give it a go, although I don't usually bother to alternate circuits at receptacles. And if I did alternate receptacles, I probably wouldn't bother doing it for a residential kitchen.

But its all about having circuits spread out and available at more than one "spot". For example, picture a long counter with a sink in the middle. Also picture 2 receptacles on either side of the sink. Any appliance on the left of the sink can be plugged in to either receptacle on the left side of the sink. And any appliance on the right side can be plugged in to either receptacle on the right side of the sink.

If we do not alternate receptacles, all appliances on the left must go to that one circuit. And conversely, all appliances on the right must go to the one circuit on the right. There is no flexibility.

If we do alternate the receptacles we get our choice which circuit each appliance goes to. If the owner likes all their appliances on the left side of the sink, then they can do that and still have the load divided between both circuits. If they like half on the left and half on the right, again they can still put half on each circuit.

This makes a few assumptions, like the cords are long enough to reach both receptacles on one side of the sink, or that the owner is willing to move things a short distance but not willing to move things to the other side of the sink. It also assumes the owner can figure out which receptacle is which circuit (maybe from prior experience - "If I divide all 6 crock pots between the two receptacles on the right, I don't trip a breaker.")

Again, not a big deal in a residential kitchen, but it seems to be more important in commercial spaces and other areas where you know there will be a lot of appliances, and you know they will be grouped in one general area, but you just aren't sure where that area will be.

 

[LarryFine]

Didn't I just respond to this question about tract homes?

In this case, I'd do what I said there: I would wire only two receptacles per counter receptacle circuit.

 

[electrofelon]

I'll give it a go, although I don't usually bother to alternate circuits at receptacles. And if I did alternate receptacles, I probably wouldn't bother doing it for a residential kitchen.

But its all about having circuits spread out and available at more than one "spot". For example, picture a long counter with a sink in the middle. Also picture 2 receptacles on either side of the sink. Any appliance on the left of the sink can be plugged in to either receptacle on the left side of the sink. And any appliance on the right side can be plugged in to either receptacle on the right side of the sink.

If we do not alternate receptacles, all appliances on the left must go to that one circuit. And conversely, all appliances on the right must go to the one circuit on the right. There is no flexibility.

If we do alternate the receptacles we get our choice which circuit each appliance goes to. If the owner likes all their appliances on the left side of the sink, then they can do that and still have the load divided between both circuits. If they like half on the left and half on the right, again they can still put half on each circuit.

This makes a few assumptions, like the cords are long enough to reach both receptacles on one side of the sink, or that the owner is willing to move things a short distance but not willing to move things to the other side of the sink. It also assumes the owner can figure out which receptacle is which circuit (maybe from prior experience - "If I divide all 6 crock pots between the two receptacles on the right, I don't trip a breaker.")

Again, not a big deal in a residential kitchen, but it seems to be more important in commercial spaces and other areas where you know there will be a lot of appliances, and you know they will be grouped in one general area, but you just aren't sure where that area will be.

:thumbsup:

 

[infinity]

Do we need two separate threads on alternating receptacles?

 

[LarryFine]

Do we need two separate threads on alternating receptacles?

Alternating threads?

 

[480sparky]

Install a HR for every receptacle in the kitchen. Wire-nut 5 or 6 of 'em together in the panelboard and put on one breaker.

When HO starts overloading the breaker and tripping it, they'll of course call you. You tell HO you installed the circuits like the engineer specified and any changes will be done at normal service call rates and billed to engineer.

Go out, remove wire nuts and break circuit down into 2-5 circuits with accompanying breakers. Bill engineer heavily for work.


Maybe they'll learn if they have to pony up.