Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

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aelectricalman

aelectricalman

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KY
If there is a smaller countertop (desk) petruding off of the countertop in the kitchen, is it neccessary to have GFCI protection on it. It is an area that will be used as a desk and not for preparing or cooking. It is well outside of 6 ft from the sink or any other water. It is only 30 inches to the top of this desktop, but is in line with the countertop and actually has the same granite used for the countertop. Thanks for any help on this matter.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

I guess more importantly, is it considered within the same realms as a SA circuit. Can I feed the first receptacle to this box located on the desktop, and then start my GFCI protection once I get to the actual countertop?
Logic would tell me to either run another circuit to the desk or include it with one of the GFCI protected SA circuit. I am stretching, but I think I have a good question. :D

[ June 06, 2005, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: aelectricalman ]
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

My question seems alittle different! You can place a refridgerator on a SA circuit, excluding it from GFCI protection. Why not a desk, located away from the countertop.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

I am of the opinion that doing new construction that what is labeled on the floor plan is how a house is wired. If the plan calls it a desk then I am going to wire the receptacle on a general purpose circuit. Have at it with the inspector and refuse to change it. I also teach inspectors to use the outline of the floor plan in making their call.
How you handle this matter is up to you.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

I call it a desk and you can wire it however you please. In fact I usually install the receptacles under the desk in the chair space and a hole gets drilled trough the counter for the cords to feed through. Makes for a neater installation.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

I think what you're asking is "can I convince anybody that this surface is exemp from 210.52(C)?

My first thought is, not me.

But then, I have no idea what a "countertop" is. (someday they'll write article 101 with some definitions in it. This really bothers me, the lack of specifying vague nouns. But I expect this from CMP 2) And XX.2's all belong in article 100 too. Or Article 101.

Forget it. Chris, countertop is meaningless so so is 210.52(C).

But I'd just spend the 12 or 15 bucks and make it right. Or load side it for free.

Sorry, I get frustrated with precision nonsense.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

I would be careful, Scott, you are asking for another 300 reply thread with statements like that. ;)

First, if you read 210.52, it gives specifics for General Provisions, Small Appliances, Countertops, Bathrooms, ....
It does not define what a countertop is, yet it tells us what to do when encountering a countertop in kitchens and dining rooms. So is a 'desk' a countertop when in a kitchen? If it is built in, and most likely made of the same material as the other countertops, then it is hard to say that it is NOT a countertop. Especially the ones that have a smaller base cabinet below on one or either side of the chair location. (I know some would disagree)
jwelectric has posted a link on a discussion about SA circuits in regards to this desk.
Your question is more specifically about GFI protection.
210.8(A)(6) kitchens - where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces.
If you install an outlet for that surface, it should be GFI protected because it serves a countertop.

Now Scott, back to your point. If you install an outlet below and drill a hole through, is that outlet not serving the countertop? and what about your minimum spacing requirements for countertops?
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:If you install an outlet below and drill a hole through, is that outlet not serving the countertop?
Click to expand...
No. It's serving the desk. This is not a countertop. The purpose of the rules related to receptacles that serve the countertop is to allow the owner to plug in the blenders and coffee makers without having extension cords all over the place. We are allowed to presume that the owner will not place a coffee maker on the desk.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

So, what about the counter top in the left foreground? Is this kitchen counter, or is this something else?

copy_of_kitchen.jpg
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

But this goes with what Sam mentioned, that we do not have a definition of what a countertop is. My contention is that if a 'desk' is made the same as a countertop, it may even be the same height as a countertop, yet WE or the PLANS or the original DESIGN calls it a desk, what is the real difference between that and an actual countertop besides name?

Yes it would help if we had a definition section of the code book. Someone once said that there was one, yet I haven't found it yet. ;) It does seem that the definitions listed are always ones you don't need.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Ryan's example is perfect for what I am stating.
The countertop is exactly the same as the 'desk'.
Same construction, same installation, same height, and is a top to base cabinets.

This is a countertop.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
Ryan's example is perfect for what I am stating.
The countertop is exactly the same as the 'desk'.
Same construction, same installation, same height, and is a top to base cabinets.

This is a countertop.
Click to expand...
His example is clearly a desk. Why would there even be any question about this?

it's not even in the kitchen.

[ June 07, 2005, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

You are correct that it is not in the kitchen.

It is in the Dining room. Which is listed in 210.52 pertaining to countertops.

Yes it is a desk, but it is still a piece of countertop material, on base cabinets, in the kitchen/dining room.

Countertop.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
You are correct that it is not in the kitchen.

It is in the Dining room. Which is listed in 210.52 pertaining to countertops.

Yes it is a desk, but it is still a piece of countertop material, on base cabinets, in the kitchen/dining room.

Countertop.
Click to expand...
so your definition of countertop has to do with the material it is made from and not its intended use?

it's clearly a desk. there is a place for a chair under it, and it is seperate from the kitchen area.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

This is a case by case thing.
My opinion is a recep under the desk area would not be required to be on the SA circuit. Depending upon the width of the countertop you would need SA circuits covering it, since we're talking about it in the kitchen or dining.
Some of the kitchen desks are a depressed area of the countertop, so recep's serving the raised area are on SA.
I think in answering this question, intent comes into play. Isn't the idea of the min. two SA circuits to handle multiple appliance loads? If the area is clearly not built to serve appliances, then why serve it with SA circuits.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

So if the floor plan states that the peninsular countertop is just a permanent "built in table" no receptacles are required???

This reminds me of the not so bedroom
1.)a room
2.)with two means of egress
3.)a clothes closet
4.)a smoke detector installed.

But yet labeled as a den.All that is missing is a bed.
Just like this kitchen, all that is missing is the food...

If it looks like a duck
If it walks like a duck
It must be a duck! (taste like chicken)

1.) Put gfci protected receptacles above the countertop or so called "desk"
2.) Put general circuit under the desk.

Money wasted but you get the best of both worlds.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

My definition of a countertop is a flat surface,permanently installed in a kitchen or dining room, surface area of more that 1ft linear wall space makes it in need of SA circuit, and are especially incorporated with a .

Since the definitions do not tell us what a countertop truly is, I have to go with common sense. And common sense does not tell me that since I wrote something on the plans, that's what it is. Since when are we allowed to do that in regards to the NEC?

What do you mean I can't do that... the architect said I could do it...See!!!
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

SA circuit and gfci (dining same as kitchen), cheaper than all the arguments, code compliant, compaint free down the line. parsing the definitions leads us back to the same arguments, with the same sides being taken by the same people. Even the same pictrure by Ryan.

An inspector could quite rightly make the call for SA and GFCI. Might not on the other hand.

paul
 
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