Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

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Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

if the plans call it a desk, and it looks like a desk, and it can serve as a desk, who are you to determine it is not a desk?
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

The back seat of my car can serve as....well you all know what...

Just because I label it a bedroom
or a work bench!!!!

It doesn't make it true...
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Say the same thing about Volt101's penninsula example. Just because the plans state something doesn't change what it is.

In Ryans example, the homeowner could easily put a coffee maker and a fondu pot on that countertop/desk. Especially since it is right next to the dining room table. I know we can't keep homeowners from doing everything, but when it looks like a countertop and acts like a countertop, and it is in the confines of the kitchen area, then maybe we should just put a SA and a GFI in there and not worry about it.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Originally posted by volt101:

This reminds me of the not so bedroom
1.)a room
2.)with two means of egress
3.)a clothes closet
4.)a smoke detector installed.

But yet labeled as a den.All that is missing is a bed.

If it looks like a duck
If it walks like a duck
It must be a duck! (taste like chicken)
Click to expand...
This issue of the desk in the kitchen or dinning room and your reference to a bed room does have a stunning resemblance.
I can see where some one might confuse a desk with a counter if that same person would think that if a room has a closet it must be a bedroom.
I have a broom closet in my kitchen so therefore it would be okay to have a desk in there because it is now a bedroom.
Do I need to install a smoke alarm and protect the circuits with Arc Fault breakers?
:roll:
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

If it looks like a duck
If it walks like a duck
It must be a duck!

A closet is a closet

If it looks like a closet
Has a door like a closet
It must be a closet

Therefore my kitchen is a bedroom and will require AFCIs and a smoke alarm

Sounds silly don?t you think? If I plan on using a room in my house as an office and decide to have a storage closet in this room there better not be an inspector try and tell me that it is a bedroom, ever. It is my house, my office or den, and my desk in that kitchen, period.
:)
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

I allow panels to go in broom closets.
I do not allow panels to go in clothes closets.

But yet a closet is a closet....

Who puts a bed in a kitchen anyways?

That office thing......hmmmmmm
now that is a tough one.

Clothes closet (a rod) or storage (shelves)?


:D
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

The closet in my kitchen has:
A rod and shelves. There is even a few hooks.

Please think again about allowing a panel in a broom closet.
240.24 (D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible material, such as in clothes closets.


The straw on my broom will burn easily.
:)

[ June 07, 2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Ryan
was it labeled a desk on the floor plan?
Click to expand...
I have no idea, this picture was taken over a year ago, I think.

I didn't look to see what the plan called it, because I think it is a desk :D
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

About a month ago i was handed a house to wire.About 3000 sq ft yet was a 1 bedroom.2 other rooms looked very much like future bedrooms.They were given other names on the stamped print.Thanks to Allen Wayne i knew how to deal with this.Because there were no closets i was not required to install smokes.Also no afci.Personally i would rather added them but owner didn't want.First words out of the inspector was where are your smokes.Answer as nice as i could was ,they are not bedrooms and have no closets.Second question was kind of stupid,who wired this (standing there with a company t shirt on ).3 rd was where is permit,signed it and left.Total time maybe 10 minutes. :D
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Seeing all of the different "opinions" is a good example of why one should go to his/her AHJ and ask for a ruling - in writing - for the only answer that really counts.
I would treat the desk in the picture as just that, a desk. But that is only my opinion. ;)
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

The one in that picture is rather clear to its use.Given the size of that kitchen and other counters it is easy to see this desk would not be used as a counter for small Appliances.But sometimes the situation looks like a coffee pot will end up there.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

When the NEC doesn't define something, the dictionary takes over, by default. I didn't find Webster's, here's American Heritage:

A level surface on a cabinet or display case, as in a kitchen or department store.
Click to expand...
The desk in Ryan's picture is a level surface on a cabinet, it even happens to be in a kitchen.

Duck, anyone? :D
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Ryan
I took a little longer look at the picture. It is plain to see that this desk is not as high as the cabinets and there seems to be a drawer in the center for a key pad or pencils and the like.
I don?t see how any one could confuse this as being part of a kitchen cabinet unless they were raised like I was.

I was raised in the foot hills of the Blue Ridge and Smokey mountains of North Carolina. We had two pickle barrels with boards laid across them as a kitchen counter. Logs cut from the bottom of cider trees with boards were the kitchen table.

Off in one corner we had a chair-desk the all in one type that was thrown away by the school. I often wonder if we had electricity would the inspector have made us install a 20 amp circuit and GFCI protect it.

I do remember how Mom fussed the time my uncles built a bathroom on the side of the hill just above the house. It wasn?t to bad unless we had a hard rain, then there was a mess in the front yard.
:D
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

I think we all are giving great cases for and against however, my question is this.

Q: Can the plug be apart of the SA Circuit, yet be exempt from GFCI protection like that of a refridgerator on a SA circuit? IE, Line side it on the GFCI.
Reason being, the homebuilder doesnt want the GFCI to be inside of the doors of the desk cabinet. He wants it to be easily seen if there is a trip. This comes on the behalf of poor planning on his part, to add cabinets after the fact.
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

What appears to be a closet installed in a kitchen can be referred to as a pantry.

What is a rod doing in the kitchen closet? To hang up grocery bags after having to lug them all the way up the hill into the house. Gonna put them away later hunny...

The most important thing that I have learned in this website is...

Check With AHJ!

[ June 08, 2005, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: volt101 ]
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Originally posted by aelectricalman:
Q: Can the plug be apart of the SA Circuit, yet be exempt from GFCI protection like that of a refridgerator on a SA circuit? IE, Line side it on the GFCI.
Click to expand...
See, that's the problem desks give us. 210.52(B)&(C) are very specific (yet vague). Everything specified shall be on an SA circuit, and nothing else.

So if a desk is not counterspace, it's forbidden to install outlets powered by the SA circuit there. If a desk is counterspace, it's required. When a condition is either forbidden or required, and it's unclear what to do, we've got a problem. :)

Reason being, the homebuilder doesnt want the GFCI to be inside of the doors of the desk cabinet. He wants it to be easily seen if there is a trip. This comes on the behalf of poor planning on his part, to add cabinets after the fact.
Click to expand...
GFCI's are a protective device, not a customer convenience device.

Analogy: Safety glasses look dumb, and I'd like to protect my eyes without looking dumb. If I have to wear glasses by law, then my problem with looking dumb or finding the safety devices inconvenient plays second fiddle to the rule, IMO. :)

If the breaker on his surge protector trips, it'll probably be in a place where he'll have to get on his knees to reset it. Somehow I imagine he will pull through this hardship and be the stronger for it. :D
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Originally posted by georgestolz:
So if a desk is not counterspace, it's forbidden to install outlets powered by the SA circuit there. If a desk is counterspace, it's required.
Click to expand...
SA circuits can feed non-counter outlets, they usually do just that in dinning rooms.

Edit, issues with UBB

[ June 08, 2005, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

There have been allot of really good replies here but there is one point that has not been addressed.
What is the area listed as on the print/floor plan :D
 
Re: Small applience circuits and desk extensions of counter

Webster's has the answer.

Desk - a table, counter, stand, or booth at which a person works

Countertop - the flat working surface on top of waist-level kitchen cabinets.

:p
 
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