Small steam turbine

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electrofelon

electrofelon

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Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
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Electrician
Maybe this should go in campfire......but what are the options for a small steam turbine? Like the steam version of "Mr. Fusion" from back to the Future 😁 . How small do these things get? What would it take for me/someone to get into small scale electricity generation thru a combustion process? Running an internal combustion engine and spinning and induction motor/generator would be super simple, but let's say I can't use an internal combustion engine because I have biomass or waste engine oil.

There is a sawmill near me that I hear generates their own electricity, but I don't know the process.
 
electrofelon said:
Maybe this should go in campfire......but what are the options for a small steam turbine? Like the steam version of "Mr. Fusion" from back to the Future 😁 . How small do these things get? What would it take for me/someone to get into small scale electricity generation thru a combustion process? Running an internal combustion engine and spinning and induction motor/generator would be super simple, but let's say I can't use an internal combustion engine because I have biomass or waste engine oil.

There is a sawmill near me that I hear generates their own electricity, but I don't know the process.
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I recall that during WW II, folks in occupied Europe converted wood to some form of fuel that could be burned in an ICE. I've seen pictures of what looks like a wood burning stove mounted on the back of a truck. Something like that? And why would you want a steam turbine? Aside from the very high cool factor. (y)
 
Those were destructive distillation reactors that turned firewood into carbon monoxide, which was then burned in engines that developed about 1/3 as much power as they did on gasoline. At least until they got gunked up by rosin, mineral ash & carbon.

An act of desperation that's probably best left in the annals of history, not revived.
 
OK, I found a company in India that will sell you a 5 HP steam turbine, find your own generator, for $3,600. That's a lot of money for "cool". :eek: It says it's suitable for firing with biomass.
 
drcampbell said:
Those were destructive distillation reactors that turned firewood into carbon monoxide, which was then burned in engines that developed about 1/3 as much power as they did on gasoline. At least until they got gunked up by rosin, mineral ash & carbon.

An act of desperation that's probably best left in the annals of history, not revived.
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Seems what goes around, comes around. Some folks in Europe are at it again, although with an allegedly cleaner process.
 
I haven't seen the plans yet, but a local facility here is planning a new installation of a system that will take biomass from nearby sawmills and burn it to produce electricity. It's all being funded by a state grant. I'll try to see if I can find out if it will use a steam turbine, I'll post whatever info I can find out about it here next week.
 
There is wood “gasification” doesn’t produce a whole lot of power, but will run a big block motor. Wood is in heated water, and gives off a gas that is burned.
 
Way back when I worked for Duke Power (now Duke Energy) in the production department, we had "small" steam turbines for boiler feed and induced draft fans in some stations. Small is relative ... maybe 5000 kW. My memory is that they were the size of a coffee table ... but memory alters facts. They had main system steam available, around 1000F and 3000 psi. Exhaust was to the main turbine condenser IIRC.
 
I was involved in some digester gas projects back in the 80s. Gas from landfills and wastewater plants was used to power IC engine-generators - no turbines.

It was a challenging system with all of the unwanted gas components such as H2S. Ongoing maintenance was pretty high.
 
Atlanta has a couple, but they are turbines. They even put flex solar panels on the slopes of the old landfill. They had a backup generator too, but I don’t remember what it was for. They were having surges blowing the control boards.
 
electrofelon said:
Maybe this should go in campfire......but what are the options for a small steam turbine? Like the steam version of "Mr. Fusion" from back to the Future 😁 . How small do these things get? What would it take for me/someone to get into small scale electricity generation thru a combustion process? Running an internal combustion engine and spinning and induction motor/generator would be super simple, but let's say I can't use an internal combustion engine because I have biomass or waste engine oil.

There is a sawmill near me that I hear generates their own electricity, but I don't know the process.
Click to expand...

Mini Steam Powered Generating Sets | Claverton Group

Mini - steam powered generating sets of 10 kw - 3kw power output to run on renewable energy ie wood and other biomass
claverton-energy.com
 
gadfly56 said:
... It says it's suitable for firing with biomass. ...
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D'Oh! The turbine doesn't care how the steam was generated.

electrofelon said:
Well isn't [a steam turbine] the only way to get electricity from a pile of wood or some petroleum that won't work in a ICE? ...
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"Only"? There are lots of other options, including piston engines and Stirling-cycle engines.
 
drcampbell said:
D'Oh! The turbine doesn't care how the steam was generated.


"Only"? There are lots of other options, including piston engines and Stirling-cycle engines.
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Ok well yeah. I was lumping reciprocating and turbine steam engines into one category of "steam" which I guess I shouldn't have, they are different animals. So ok what about a steam reciprocating engine? Anything available besides some half a century old thing at an antique power days show? If someone puts a gun to your head and a pile of wood in front of you and says turn that into electricity, what do you do?
 
"Only"? There are lots of other options, including piston engines and Stirling-cycle engines.
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A friend had one of those back almost fifty years ago, it used a small fuel pellet in the boiler. It was pretty cool. It was similar to this setup;
5B072ACA-5DAF-49F7-A14F-2ED0D20F3534.jpeg
 
There are a few Google hits for small reciprocating steam engines, from India.

Some more thoughts:. Turbines are going to be expensive. Lots of machining there, but seems like they wouldn't require the super expensive alloys that gas turbines do due to the much lower operating temp. There was a famous kit helicopter that used a gas turbine from an auxiliary power unit. Unfortunately I can't think of where a small steam turbine would be used where one could salvage one.

Perhaps it wouldn't be hard to hack an air compressor into a steam engine? Longevity would likely suck

Maybe just getting an old steam locomotive would be the best option.
 
I'm kind of fascinated with IC micro turbine generators. Seems like a really promising solution when used as CHP in many applications. Typically 30 to 200 KW. For whatever reason they really have not become a very big player. Capstone is the big player in this in the US.
There was a company in Europe that was trying to make one as small as 5KW. Not sure if that ever went anywhere.
 
If you don't already have a steam source, it's almost a fool's game; the thermal efficiency of reciprocating generation is something like under 10% from fuel to electricity, the sawmills do it because they already have steam. A turbine will be more efficient but the small ones tend to be fast (>10k RPM) so there's a reduction gearbox to the generator or a very high speed DC generator and conversion electronics.

OTOH, if you want to play around with one, sounds good to me :D. You still have the issues of a >100 PSI boiler, fuel and water handling, daily maintenance, etc etc.
 
Years ago, my dad and I came across a guy that had a 8 ft water wheel turning a 12 volt car alternator. It was lighting his small woodshop. He had a woodfired boiler in his shop producing steam. He had modified a little Briggs & Stratton engine to run on steam. It ran his table saw. My dad had him make a water wheel for our property. Had about 300 ft of flume. Never produced any electricity with ours though it was just for fun.

At one time in Wyoming they were generating electricity at coal bed methane wells. A 40 kw gas turbine generator was about the size of a refrigerator.
 
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