Smart City
- Thread starter Souheil
- Start date
- Status
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
181231-0753 EST
Souheil:
Transportation.
We have research projects going on in town relative to roads and cars talking to each other. I believe it is possibly at least 4 years ago that some intersections were communicating with vehicles and vehicles with each other. Several thousand vehicles were in this test in the North Campus area.
We have two autonomous vehicle test tracks in the area. And some autonomous vehicles on some local streets.
There are a lot of electrical functions developing in this area.
We have both City and University bus systems. Neither is operating efficiently. Mostly buses are near empty. About 5% of my tax bill is for the City bus system, and I suspect there is State or Federal money as well going into the inefficient operation.
Population is another very big problem. It needs reduction. But that is not electrical.
Government has been pushing solar. But in our area it has been taxed. I believe this has now changed.
What do you think needs to be made smarter? Do you want to disassemble a person into electrical bits, transmit the bits, and then reassemble the person at the destination? This could greatly reduce transit time, and possibly costs.
When I was young and buses were fairly useful there would be times when there was standing room only.
I don't think I need to talk to my refrigerator, or washing machine, or dryer, or dishwasher. Possibly my furnace. Certainly monitoring of various items would be useful.
.
Souheil:
Transportation.
We have research projects going on in town relative to roads and cars talking to each other. I believe it is possibly at least 4 years ago that some intersections were communicating with vehicles and vehicles with each other. Several thousand vehicles were in this test in the North Campus area.
We have two autonomous vehicle test tracks in the area. And some autonomous vehicles on some local streets.
There are a lot of electrical functions developing in this area.
We have both City and University bus systems. Neither is operating efficiently. Mostly buses are near empty. About 5% of my tax bill is for the City bus system, and I suspect there is State or Federal money as well going into the inefficient operation.
Population is another very big problem. It needs reduction. But that is not electrical.
Government has been pushing solar. But in our area it has been taxed. I believe this has now changed.
What do you think needs to be made smarter? Do you want to disassemble a person into electrical bits, transmit the bits, and then reassemble the person at the destination? This could greatly reduce transit time, and possibly costs.
When I was young and buses were fairly useful there would be times when there was standing room only.
I don't think I need to talk to my refrigerator, or washing machine, or dryer, or dishwasher. Possibly my furnace. Certainly monitoring of various items would be useful.
.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
in fact the main issue at the very beginning stage is to know how to put the conceptual design of a smart platform for a smart city.
What this platform should consist of? how it should look like? and what communication mediums are required?
Listing smart services can be an open ended list, which the end user will be obviously benefiting, but what about the platform enabling these services?
Looking at the current inquiries at newly planned smart cities, we see lot of services listed in the RFPs as required by the governments, but no where is mentioned about the platform that enable these services.
Here is where the approach should start, and here is where the info is missing.
What this platform should consist of? how it should look like? and what communication mediums are required?
Listing smart services can be an open ended list, which the end user will be obviously benefiting, but what about the platform enabling these services?
Looking at the current inquiries at newly planned smart cities, we see lot of services listed in the RFPs as required by the governments, but no where is mentioned about the platform that enable these services.
Here is where the approach should start, and here is where the info is missing.
Coppersmith
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa, FL, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I tried to think up a response that was not political, but I can't. 
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
I tried to think up a response that was not political, but I can't.
Ditto.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
I tried to think up a response that was not political, but I can't.
i have non partisan cactus i spent a week with. works wonders.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
190101-1517 EST
Souheil:
It would be useful if you defined what you mean by a "smart city". This could become a useful discussion.
We are going to get to the time when we have large numbers of autonomous vehicles, but I don't think it will be as soon as some think. Too many accident problems in the near term. Infrastructure that provides car to car and car to road information is likely to populate sooner.
As I previously mentioned the car to car and car to road communication research has been ongoing here for some time.
There is a research program at the University relative to improving the vacant bus problem. This is directed at point to point transport using cellphones for a person to indicate their location, and where they want to go. This goes to a computer that assigns a small vehicle to pickup up the person in a relatively short time. Then the person is taken directly to their location, or to a transfer point to a larger bus, and then to their destination, or to another transfer point to another small vehicle. Ultimately the small vehicles would be autonomous. Lots of different electrical work in this system.
As a side point electric and hybrid vehicles do not seem to be selling well in our area at this time.
.
Souheil:
It would be useful if you defined what you mean by a "smart city". This could become a useful discussion.
We are going to get to the time when we have large numbers of autonomous vehicles, but I don't think it will be as soon as some think. Too many accident problems in the near term. Infrastructure that provides car to car and car to road information is likely to populate sooner.
As I previously mentioned the car to car and car to road communication research has been ongoing here for some time.
There is a research program at the University relative to improving the vacant bus problem. This is directed at point to point transport using cellphones for a person to indicate their location, and where they want to go. This goes to a computer that assigns a small vehicle to pickup up the person in a relatively short time. Then the person is taken directly to their location, or to a transfer point to a larger bus, and then to their destination, or to another transfer point to another small vehicle. Ultimately the small vehicles would be autonomous. Lots of different electrical work in this system.
As a side point electric and hybrid vehicles do not seem to be selling well in our area at this time.
.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
190101-1559 EST
The forum allows you to edit, but then after you edit and save it, then the system says you timed out. Bad software design.
My last comment was:
I have seen an autonomous vehicle on a public street in the North Campus area, but I suspect there was a driver in the car, too much liability otherwise.
.
The forum allows you to edit, but then after you edit and save it, then the system says you timed out. Bad software design.
My last comment was:
I have seen an autonomous vehicle on a public street in the North Campus area, but I suspect there was a driver in the car, too much liability otherwise.
.
RumRunner
Senior Member
- Location
- SCV Ca, USA
- Occupation
- Retired EE
https://www.iamsterdam.com/en/our-network/municipal-government/amsterdam-smart-city
I'm fascinated by the inquiry. . . in fact it is a concept that is replete with the abstract.
In every soon-to-be-born conceptual stage of future development designed to improve human existence, it will take a broad vision.
Sustainable development is a process not only how we travel, communicate, knowing how to use resources that will not compromise the well-being of future generations.
We can create all the niceties that will benefit us all but all of these come with environmental cost. It will lead to environmental degradation. We can build self- driving cars for example, but it will need factories to make components and disposal of worn-out parts could become a problem. A large portion of our oceans are already covered in plastic.
The idea of a having platform which I take as a soi-disant (now, that is French LOL) would be equivalent to a worn trope : “which comes first, the chicken or the egg?”
It would be inconceivable to come up with a procedure on how to go ahead with a project without really knowing what consequences would be.
There is a project in Amsterdam that covers this excellent idea called SmartHood.
Click on the link above, also those sub-links that might give you some answers.
Incidentally, I'd be “promenading” in the Baltic region this year (dates not divulged) and I'd be spending some time in Amsterdam. I'll try to scour their libraries and talk to some people to find out more.
I'll keep you posted if you care to come back.
Bonne journee
gar and myspark,
Thank you for your valuable inputs.
As i mentioned earlier, and after reading your comments, we can realize that the discussion is service focused rather than making it holistic approach for the development of smart platform for a 100% smart city.
For this, we need to understand the infrastructure requirements, or in other word: the enabled ICT platform for a better connecting ecosystems at the stage of activating the citizens-centric services. My focus here is on the establishment of the proper ICT infrastructure (say for a brand new city), enabling this city to be able to revamp itself for better services at any development stage.
- what should be taken into consideration for benchmarking?
- how the framework should look like?
- what are the design steps to develop a smart ICT platform
I am sure that services are there to facilitate our lives but maturity in delivering services is still a big concern, this can be solved only by having an advanced ecosystem connectivity mediums, enabling real time mature data, all this backed up with a state of the art ICT infrastructure.
Thank you for your valuable inputs.
As i mentioned earlier, and after reading your comments, we can realize that the discussion is service focused rather than making it holistic approach for the development of smart platform for a 100% smart city.
For this, we need to understand the infrastructure requirements, or in other word: the enabled ICT platform for a better connecting ecosystems at the stage of activating the citizens-centric services. My focus here is on the establishment of the proper ICT infrastructure (say for a brand new city), enabling this city to be able to revamp itself for better services at any development stage.
- what should be taken into consideration for benchmarking?
- how the framework should look like?
- what are the design steps to develop a smart ICT platform
I am sure that services are there to facilitate our lives but maturity in delivering services is still a big concern, this can be solved only by having an advanced ecosystem connectivity mediums, enabling real time mature data, all this backed up with a state of the art ICT infrastructure.
junkhound
Senior Member
- Location
- Renton, WA
- Occupation
- EE, power electronics specialty
Oh my, U use such big werds and convolute phasing that it is all beyond me.....
Iz there a website with all the latest gobbledegook phrases to reference two?
...gramer misteaks on porpose....
Iz there a website with all the latest gobbledegook phrases to reference two?
...gramer misteaks on porpose....
RumRunner
Senior Member
- Location
- SCV Ca, USA
- Occupation
- Retired EE
UNESCO is taking a holistic approach in promoting comprehensive steps in making ICT (Information
and Communication ) technology universally accessible.
This will enable teachers, educators develop professional and efficient education management and governance.
The knowledge that can be gained by such approach could be applied in creating Smart Cities. . . this endeavor is no less than grandeur –and I applaud it.
Such efforts by UNESCO would be helpful in addressing challenges in creating Smart Cities.
However, its success hinges on the joint efforts of the three sectors namely: Communication and Information, Education and Science.
Nothing is impossible if scientists put their effort in devising a way on how to apply their expertise and making it easy for everyone like typing on a keyboard-- after such a platform become a part of our repertoire of instruments to go on and improve our lives.
It is our future and it will happen maybe not in my lifetime.
drktmplr12
Senior Member
- Location
- South Florida
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
the amount of data to transmit at peak times and the number of end use devices would be staggering. two parallel city owned and operated fiberoptic networks (one intranet, one internet) with software platform(s) that automatically control components of the smart city and allows operators to interface with and manage the same. all communication links monitored with automatic failover. all access to the public network controlled. network security would be paramount.
considering the end use devices would need to somehow interface with and possibly be controlled by software, it might be beneficial to develop a standard protocol or interface so that devices can be easily added or subtracted. as an example, most automakers have a proprietary link to the auto's control system and some crap user interface for the driver. if we are talking about smart transportation, some master controller would need to establish a one or two way communication link to command the auto's control system to do something (change route maybe?) and possibly inform the passenger (route changed due to accident, ETA adjusted to xx).
what components (the list of services) of the city are eligible to be smart ? off the top of my head...
transportation
education
healthcare
retail
professional workplaces/commercial buildings
restaurants
emergency response
water and sewer
recreation
energy management/reliability
waste management (trash collection, grease collection, etc)
city maintenance (landscaping, irrigation, utilities)
more questions:
what are the sub-components of these components which must be smart? the sub-components of these sub-components?
why does each need to be made smart? what service/convenience does it offer and how does that benefit the city?
how is each sub-components made smart, physically?
how do the smarts plug into the "city", figuratively speaking?
how much smarts are left to the "city" and how much is expected of the sub-component?
are the controls by some master, or group of masters with handing off (think like cell phone towers), or are they distributed to the end use devices?
how much will this all cost and how will funds be raised to accomplish it?
who is going to maintain the smart systems when they fail? engineers? technicians? are there enough skilled workers to support the infrastructure and can the city pay to keep them all?
how much computing power is needed to accomplish everything?
considering the end use devices would need to somehow interface with and possibly be controlled by software, it might be beneficial to develop a standard protocol or interface so that devices can be easily added or subtracted. as an example, most automakers have a proprietary link to the auto's control system and some crap user interface for the driver. if we are talking about smart transportation, some master controller would need to establish a one or two way communication link to command the auto's control system to do something (change route maybe?) and possibly inform the passenger (route changed due to accident, ETA adjusted to xx).
what components (the list of services) of the city are eligible to be smart ? off the top of my head...
transportation
education
healthcare
retail
professional workplaces/commercial buildings
restaurants
emergency response
water and sewer
recreation
energy management/reliability
waste management (trash collection, grease collection, etc)
city maintenance (landscaping, irrigation, utilities)
more questions:
what are the sub-components of these components which must be smart? the sub-components of these sub-components?
why does each need to be made smart? what service/convenience does it offer and how does that benefit the city?
how is each sub-components made smart, physically?
how do the smarts plug into the "city", figuratively speaking?
how much smarts are left to the "city" and how much is expected of the sub-component?
are the controls by some master, or group of masters with handing off (think like cell phone towers), or are they distributed to the end use devices?
how much will this all cost and how will funds be raised to accomplish it?
who is going to maintain the smart systems when they fail? engineers? technicians? are there enough skilled workers to support the infrastructure and can the city pay to keep them all?
how much computing power is needed to accomplish everything?
kingpb
Senior Member
- Location
- SE USA as far as you can go
- Occupation
- Engineer, Registered
Before anything can be improved, you have to change the mindset of the users. Take Solar PV for example. The process of getting the silicon is very energy intensive, then the backing material is a polymer which is made from petroleum products. So to simply advance beyond the simple mindedness of thinking that "green energy" is free energy or has no environmental consequence is preposterous but yet people think its a simple process to say everything green. Studies indicate the real carbon footprint to manufacture and transport typically outweighs any end user feel good.
Then there's the time component; what we would imagine to be a smart city today, would look like a black & white TV compared to what would be available by the time the original plan were ever implemented.
There has to be a clear definition and understanding of what "SMART' is going to mean, simply having more data doesn't mean it makes it smart, it just means you probably have a lot of useless information.
Then there is also a control problem, as in population control, because what are you going to do when people want in, but there is no room. You would be essentially living in a bubble where only the rich can afford the high cost. Anarchy will prevail.
Then there's the time component; what we would imagine to be a smart city today, would look like a black & white TV compared to what would be available by the time the original plan were ever implemented.
There has to be a clear definition and understanding of what "SMART' is going to mean, simply having more data doesn't mean it makes it smart, it just means you probably have a lot of useless information.
Then there is also a control problem, as in population control, because what are you going to do when people want in, but there is no room. You would be essentially living in a bubble where only the rich can afford the high cost. Anarchy will prevail.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
The first question to be answered is, what do you want the smart city to do? Here is the point where is usually falls apart because politicians (of any stripe) can't keep their hands off the technical side of things and are clueless about the overall vision. It' doesn't beget reelection, except where they can hand out the occasional pork. Since they control the purse, the final product is going to serve their needs, not the citizens at large. This is not a rant against politicians per se, just an acknowledgement that under the current way of doing things, you are pretty much guaranteed to be disappointed in the final product.
As an example, anyone on this forum who has done fire alarm work at any DOD and most other federal sites knows that they all want a mass notification system. It's the legacy of the Khobar Towers bombing. What they won't do is sit down and create a comprehensive plan for the base/site that integrates every building into a single response network. Every building gets a panel with voice capability and some amber strobes, but every building has a different vendor installed. The very antithesis of what's intended, but the installing contractor met the spec so it must be "good".
As an example, anyone on this forum who has done fire alarm work at any DOD and most other federal sites knows that they all want a mass notification system. It's the legacy of the Khobar Towers bombing. What they won't do is sit down and create a comprehensive plan for the base/site that integrates every building into a single response network. Every building gets a panel with voice capability and some amber strobes, but every building has a different vendor installed. The very antithesis of what's intended, but the installing contractor met the spec so it must be "good".
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Cite your sources, please. "Studies indicate" is not sufficient.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
This is about smart cities. Let's see if we can stay on topic for 3 or 4 pages before terminal thread drift occurs. Pretty please?
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
- Status