Smoke/CO Detector LISTED for Use Near Bathroom??

[Jerramundi]

Just reviewing NFPA 72, Chapter 29 and came across this idea of a smoke detector being "LISTED" for use near a bathroom.

I have a poorly insulated soffit serving as a ceiling in the hallway... and it's my understanding that
NFPA 72, §29.11.3.4(3) tells us to avoid mounting detectors in locations that "may become considerably warmer or cooler than the room, such as a poorly insulated ceiling..."

This forces me to consider a wall mounted option, but that would put it within 3ft of the bathroom door.
NFPA 72, §29.11.3.4(6) says it "shall not be installed within 36" of the bathroom door.... UNLESS listed for the purpose."

Now, I don't know about you, but I've NEVER come across a smoke detector that's explicitly LISTED for use near a bathroom.

I've read that photoelectric detectors are less likely to cause nuisance trips near a bathroom, but LISTED for that purpose???

 

[mtnelect]

Just reviewing NFPA 72, Chapter 29 and came across this idea of a smoke detector being "LISTED" for use near a bathroom.

I have a poorly insulated soffit serving as a ceiling in the hallway... and it's my understanding that
NFPA 72, §29.11.3.4(3) tells us to avoid mounting detectors in locations that "may become considerably warmer or cooler than the room, such as a poorly insulated ceiling..."

This forces me to consider a wall mounted option, but that would put it within 3ft of the bathroom door.
NFPA 72, §29.11.3.4(6) says it "shall not be installed within 36" of the bathroom door.... UNLESS listed for the purpose."

Now, I don't know about you, but I've NEVER come across a smoke detector that's explicitly LISTED for use near a bathroom.

I've read that photoelectric detectors are less likely to cause nuisance trips near a bathroom, but LISTED for that purpose???

I know they have them listed specifically for kitchens.

 

[Jerramundi]

I know they have them listed specifically for kitchens.

Would you care to share a product specification document that explicitly backs up your claim? Because I'd like to see it.

I should start by saying that I've come to this question already being familiar with the code requirements for their specific required locations (e.g. years of experience that say "install one in the hallway" even though the NFPA says literally NOTHING about requiring detectors in a hallway), but I've never seen one that is explicitly listed for use in a kitchen.

There are rules in NFPA 72 which govern where you can place them in a kitchen, there are suggestions that you install detectors with a "hush" button to silence nuisance alarms, the list goes on and on... but I've never seen a smoke detector explicitly LISTED for use in a kitchen and there is a difference.

If there exists a UL standard for this and a product is stamped with that number, then that would be sufficient, but I'm not familiar with any such standard. Perhaps I would be if I did more work in commercial kitchen applications, but I haven't.

Being LISTED for use in a kitchen is different than some article saying "photoelectric works better in a kitchen."

 

[kwired]

I don't know that it needs to be specifically in the hallway, AFAIK just needs to be one in each sleeping room as well as one outside said sleeping rooms, often making hallway the most logical place to put them.

I don't know about codes for locating too close to bathroom, but can tell you from experience you can get false alarms if you open bathroom door while it is really steamy in there and when that water vapor hits the detector it can set it off. I don't see that as being a safety issue as much as a nuisance though, so good idea not to get too close to bathroom. If no shower in said bathroom, maybe not really an issue at all, but then if you have a exhaust fan and use it probably won't have false alarms either.

 

[Jerramundi]

I don't know that it needs to be specifically in the hallway, AFAIK just needs to be one in each sleeping room as well as one outside said sleeping rooms, often making hallway the most logical place to put them.

I don't know about codes for locating too close to bathroom, but can tell you from experience you can get false alarms if you open bathroom door while it is really steamy in there and when that water vapor hits the detector it can set it off. I don't see that as being a safety issue as much as a nuisance though, so good idea not to get too close to bathroom. If no shower in said bathroom, maybe not really an issue at all, but then if you have a exhaust fan and use it probably won't have false alarms either.

The hallway was just an example of (1) hands-on-experience vs. (2) code knowledge... being utilized to exemplify the difference between experience, hear-say, or some article saying that photoelectric works better in a kitchen... vs actually being LISTED for that purpose.

In all my years all I ever heard was "you install one in the hallway outside the bedrooms," but NFPA 72 just requires them to be within 21 feet of the sleeping area. Other codes change that required distance. For example, here in IL, state law requires 15 ft. But yes, the NFPA says nothing about a hallway being a required location.

The point I'm making is in regards to my initial question about NFPA 72, §29.11.3.4(6) which prevents us from installing them within 3 ft of the bathroom door, unless LISTED for that purpose. So I'm scratching my head wondering wt* is a smoke detector LISTED for use near a bathroom? haha.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Note that this is about smoke alarms and not smoke detectors. However I am not aware of either being listed for that specific purpose.

 

[Jerramundi]

Note that this is about smoke alarms and not smoke detectors. However I am not aware of either being listed for that specific purpose.

Well as far as I can tell, NFPA 72, §29.11.3.4(6) explicitly says "smoke alarms AND smoke detectors shall not be....." etc.

But yes, I've never heard of one being LISTED for use near a bathroom or in a kitchen. Again I'm sure if I did more commercial work or was involved in larger projects that utilized the wide array of detectors, alarms, etc., I might be able to answer my own question... but I'm just a lowly residential guy *tear*

 

[Jerramundi]

I know they have them listed specifically for kitchens.

UL 217 and UL 268.

 

[gene6]

I believe the residential code states you cant have a smoke alarm or smoke detector within 3 feet for a bathroom with a shower door.

 

[Jerramundi]

I believe the residential code states you cant have a smoke alarm or smoke detector within 3 feet for a bathroom with a shower door.

Do you have a reference for that? It would be in true decentralized, pointless excessive bureaucratic fashion if the residential code took NFPA 72, §29.11.3.4(6) and just removed a few words, lol.

Because NFPA 72 says the same thing, but allows for a detector that's LISTED to be in that area, which still has me scratching my head.
I've decided screw it and I'm just putting the detector in the living room. Still meets the 15' requirement.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Well as far as I can tell, NFPA 72, §29.11.3.4(6) explicitly says "smoke alarms AND smoke detectors shall not be....." etc.
...

Does the system you are installing have a fire alarm control panel? If it does, you have a smoke detector, if it doesn't you have a smoke alarm.

 

[mtnelect]

• Smoke alarms should be replaced 10 years from the date of manufacture. Combo smoke/CO alarms should be replaced after 5-7 years (depending on the model).

 

[mtnelect]

The date printed on the back of your alarm is not an expiration date. It is the day your unit was manufactured. Learn more in our guide, Find an Alarm's Model # or Date of Manufacture .

 

[mtnelect]

Having problems with your smoke alarm ?

• Humidity
Smoke alarms are susceptible to nuisance alarms when placed near a bathroom or other potentially high humidity area.

• HVAC vents
Smoke alarms placed near a cold air return are more susceptible to nuisance alarms because dusty air can be blown through the alarm sensing chamber.

• Dusty cover or sensor
Alarms may look clean, but dust can accumulate inside the cover, especially in newly built homes. Gently vacuum smoke alarms regularly using the soft brush attachment.

• Insects in the sensor
Clean the smoke alarm with the soft brush attachment on your vacuum.

• An alarm was triggered by an alarm in another part of the home
In a system of interconnected AC or AC/DC alarms, the unit triggering the alarm may be in another part of the home - smoke may be present, but you can't see it.

• Large appliances on the same circuit as the alarms
A large current load like a vacuum cleaner on the same circuit may cause nuisance alarms.

• Direct sunlight on the alarm
Bright sunlight in the chamber could interfere with photoelectric alarm sensors and cause nuisance alarms. If this happens, we recommend moving the location of the alarm.

• When heating is turned on for first use in new homes
Oil and residue are present on and in furnaces and ductwork from the factory to protect the metal surfaces. When the heat is turned on, this can cause smoke to be emitted temporarily and set off smoke alarms.

Dirt, drywall dust, and construction debris are often present in ductwork. The winter season’s first use of the furnace can cause fine particles to be blown through the house possibly causing nuisance alarms. Nuisance alarms tend to increase during the fall.

 

[robertd]

I can tell you from first hand experience a hot shower can set off a detector in the hallway just outside a bathroom door.

I once saw in a commercial kitchen smoke detectors that had tubes about 6" long sticking out of them. I guess they sampled
the air lower down from the ceiling. They look like they were made that way, not something someone added to it.

 

[mtnelect]

UL 217 and UL 268.

I should have been more specific ...

• Install at least 5 feet (1.5 meters) away from any cooking appliance. Air currents can draw cooking smoke into the smoke sensor and cause unwanted alarms.

 

[Jerramundi]

I should have been more specific ...

• Install at least 5 feet (1.5 meters) away from any cooking appliance. Air currents can draw cooking smoke into the smoke sensor and cause unwanted alarms.

With all due respect brother, I still don't see any officially recognized references in your information and that's the (hair pulling, eye-twitching, shove a spoon in your ear) name of this game.

I appreciate you responding to my query about detectors being LISTED for use near a bathroom by stating that there are products listed for use in a kitchen... and to that point, as far as I can tell, you are correct. There are indeed smoke alarms and smoke detectors LISTED for use in a kitchen, or to be more specific, near a stationary/fixed cooking appliance.

But the official listing is still required and that's all I was asking for, which I CANNOT find regarding use near bathrooms, but as far as your point is concerned about kitchens, I did find in the 2022 NFPA 72.

 

[Jerramundi]

I should have been more specific ...

• Install at least 5 feet (1.5 meters) away from any cooking appliance. Air currents can draw cooking smoke into the smoke sensor and cause unwanted alarms.

Included is a copy of the text from the 2022 NFPA 72 I'm referring to, which I understand to be allowable by the Fair Use standard of Copyright Law as I'm merely commenting on, critiquing the text...



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§29.11.3.4(4) Smoke alarms and smoke detectors shall NOT be installed between 10ft and 20ft along a horizontal flow path from a stationary or fixed cooking appliance unless the devices comply with the following:

(1) Prior to Jan. 1st 2023 - (a) Equipped with an alarm silencing means, (b) Utilizes photoelectric detection, or is (c) Listed for resistance to common nuisance sources (8th ed. UL 217 or 7th ed. UL 268)

(2) Post Jan. 1st 2023 - The alarm/detector MUST be listed (8th ed. UL 217 or 7th ed. UL 268).
Being equipped with an alarm silencing means or utilizing photoelectric is no longer acceptable.

In other words if you draw a line from the appliance to the alarm/detector, it must be less than 10ft away or greater than 20ft away, unless I've misunderstood the meaning of a "flow path," but every diagram I've seen just displays it as a straight line between the appliance and the alarm/detector.

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§29.11.3.4(5) Smoke alarms and smoke detectors shall NOT be installed within an area of exclusion determined by a 10ft radial distance along a horizontal flow path from a stationary or fixed cooking appliance.

When the 10ft area of exclusion:

(1) Prohibits the placement of a detector required by NFPA 72 and
(2) There are no clear interior partitions or headers

You shall be PERMITTED to install a detector within a radial distance of 6ft - 10ft... UNLESS the alarm/detector

(1) Prior to Jan. 1st 2023 - (a) Utilizes photoelectric detection, or is (b) Listed for resistance to common nuisance sources (8th ed. UL 217 or 7th ed. UL 268)

(2) Post Jan. 1st 2023 the alarm/detector MUST be listed (8th ed. UL 217 or 7th ed. UL 268).
Utilizing photoelectric is no longer acceptable.

In other words, this creates an additional area of exclusion within the first 10ft from the appliance. Now, this particular area of exclusion is "radial" in nature, whereas the first rule is not, but they are essentially the same thing IMO.

The first rule NOT BEING "radial" and the second rule BEING "radial" are essential the same thing. Regarding the first rule, If you draw a straight line from the appliance to the detector, no matter where it is placed, that is essentially, the same thing as a radial area of exclusion. Both rules should just be re-written as being "radial" IMO, but I could be wrong.

Also, the way they have this worded, this particular use of the word "unless" creates a double negative.
First, they are creating an area of exclusion within 10ft.
Then they are saying, if this prohibits placement required by code you can do 6 ft - 10 ft
Then they are saying, UNLESS it is photoelectric or UL 217, UL 268 listed.

 

[Jerramundi]

I should have been more specific ...

• Install at least 5 feet (1.5 meters) away from any cooking appliance. Air currents can draw cooking smoke into the smoke sensor and cause unwanted alarms.

So actually, it does NOT say at least 5 feet. It's a bit more complicated than that... unless that's a local amendment in SoCal, which would actually be much much easier to understand than the NFPA, lol.

 

[Jerramundi]

It's weird. You basically have two areas of exclusion being created with various exceptions to each area of exclusion. So the simplest thing to do, is to just be rich and have a kitchen that allows you to place the detector more than 20ft away, lol.