Smoke/CO Detector LISTED for Use Near Bathroom??

[Jerramundi]

Does the system you are installing have a fire alarm control panel? If it does, you have a smoke detector, if it doesn't you have a smoke alarm.

Well, you're speaking from more of a commercial standpoint (I think). Where Detectors and Alarms can be separate devices and operate via a control panel.

I'm talking from a residential standpoint, the item that you can buy at home depot and put in your home. That is BOTH an alarm and a detector according to the NFPA 72 definitions, IMO.

 

[Jerramundi]

Either way, I've got my answers.

I see nothing in NFPA 72 about any type of listing that explicitly allows for use of an alarm/detector within that horizontal 3ft area of exclusion near a bathroom door. So I'm just suggesting we place it in the living room and meet that 15ft requirement while avoiding the bathroom entirely.

As far as the kitchen is concerned, I'm going for within the initial 10ft-20ft area of exclusion, but ensuring the device is UL 217 or UL 268 listed per 2022 NFPA 72 requirements.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The problem with a smoke alarm being located outside a bathroom is if they are ionization type alarms. The steam from a shower will set it off and be a bother. I presume if you got a photoelectric unit then it would not be an issue.

 

[roger]

If it's an area you really think needs some level of fire protection you can go with an interconnected heat detector and a separate CO detector.

 

[Jerramundi]

The problem with a smoke alarm being located outside a bathroom is if they are ionization type alarms. The steam from a shower will set it off and be a bother. I presume if you got a photoelectric unit then it would not be an issue.

From what I've read, this is my understanding as well. But, the explicit text in NFPA 72 is that it must be LISTED for that purpose and that's what has got me scratching my head.

I see that for near cooking appliances, UL 217 and UL 268 are listings for resistance to common nuisance sources. Do these same listings apply to near bathrooms as well? And if so, why does NFPA 72 not explicitly say so like it does for cooking appliances?

 

[Jerramundi]

The problem with a smoke alarm being located outside a bathroom is if they are ionization type alarms. The steam from a shower will set it off and be a bother. I presume if you got a photoelectric unit then it would not be an issue.

@Dennis Alwon or @roger

Would you be able to provide further clarification on 2022 NFPA 72 §29.11.3.4(5) (see previous text)

The final use of the word "unless" seems to be creating a double negative in regards to the 6-10ft exception to the 10ft exclusion zone.
The way it reads, it sounds like you CAN'T put UL 217 and UL 268 listed detectors/alarms in that 6-10ft exception.

But it really wouldn't make sense to prevent the placement of UL 217 and UL 268 alarms/detectors.

 

[roger]

I am on my phone right now but do a search for Kidde heat detector for one example.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is the section that is talked about--

(5)
Smoke alarms and smoke detectors shall not be installed within an area of exclusion determined by a 10 ft (3.0 m) radial distance along a horizontal flow path from a stationary or fixed cooking appliance. When the 10 ft (3.0 m) area of exclusion would prohibit the placement of a smoke alarm or smoke detector required by other sections of this Code, and when the kitchen or cooking area and adjacent spaces have no clear interior partitions or headers, smoke alarms or smoke detectors shall be permitted for installation at a radial distance between 6 ft (1.8 m) and 10 ft (3.0 m) from any stationary or fixed cooking appliance unless the devices comply with the following:

• (a)
  Prior to January 1, 2023, the devices shall use photoelectric detection or be listed for resistance to common nuisance sources from cooking in accordance with the 8th edition of UL 217, the 7th edition of UL 268, or subsequent editions.
• (b)
  Effective January 1, 2023, the devices shall be listed for resistance to common nuisance sources from cooking nuisance alarms in accordance with the 8th edition of UL 217, the 7th edition of UL 268, or subsequent editions.

It is saying that you following the rule of 6' and 10' or cooking appliance unless it is prior to Jan 1, 2023 then you can use a photoelectric alarm

 

[Jerramundi]

@Dennis Alwon Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like it SHOULD read like this...

"....smoke alarms or smoke detectors shall be permitted for installation at a radial distance between 6 ft (1.8 m) and 10 ft (3.0 m) from any stationary or fixed cooking appliance unless AND the devices SHALL comply with the following:

Prior to January 1, 2023....

Effective January 1, 2023....

???

 

[Jerramundi]

@Dennis Alwon

The initial statement made: 10ft area of exclusion.

The allowable exception (i.e. follow-up statement): "Rule of 6 and 10" (as you put it)

The use of unless there, to me, negates the "Rule of 6 and 10" (as you put it)

 

[Jerramundi]

Or, is what they're saying.. that you can put it anywhere within that 10ft area of exclusion (i.e. are NOT limited to between 6ft and 10ft)
given (1) the prior conditions are met (i.e. (a) 10ft area of exclusion prevents you from meetin code, (b) no clear partitions, headers
and (2) the alarm/detector is photoelectric or UL 217, UL 268

 

[gadfly56]

I can tell you from first hand experience a hot shower can set off a detector in the hallway just outside a bathroom door.

I once saw in a commercial kitchen smoke detectors that had tubes about 6" long sticking out of them. I guess they sampled
the air lower down from the ceiling. They look like they were made that way, not something someone added to it.

Those were heat detectors, not smoke detectors. Kidde/Fike "Detect-A-Fire".

 

[Jerramundi]

I'm starting to understand what you guys meant when you " " politely commented on " "
the code becoming more design oriented than electrical safety, lol.

You LEGALLY CANNOT install this here. Why? It might annoy you slightly, lol.

Although to be fair, nuisance alarms are indeed really, REALLY annoying.

 

[Jerramundi]

Those were heat detectors, not smoke detectors. Kidde/Fike "Detect-A-Fire".

CRAZY!! I was JUST watching a video about those detectors out of pure curiosity. We must be like, connected or something.

 

[Jerramundi]

I guess to wrap this thread up... if someone could sum up for me exactly what UL 217 and UL 268 state, it would be much appreciated. It would answer my initial question about listings for near bathrooms. I have a feeling those are the listings that would allow you to put it within 3ft of a bathroom door.

 

[gadfly56]

I guess to wrap this thread up... if someone could sum up for me exactly what UL 217 and UL 268 state, it would be much appreciated. It would answer my initial question about listings for near bathrooms. I have a feeling those are the listings that would allow you to put it within 3ft of a bathroom door.

Since the standards are crazy expensive, we don't have them in the office. However, I don't believe I've ever heard of them currently including a section on "steam proof" detectors/alarms, so, in that sense they can't be listed because there is no standard to which they can be listed. The language simply allows for the possibility that at some future date there might be a product listed to a new or amended standard.

 

[Jerramundi]

Since the standards are crazy expensive, we don't have them in the office. However, I don't believe I've ever heard of them currently including a section on "steam proof" detectors/alarms, so, in that sense they can't be listed because there is no standard to which they can be listed. The language simply allows for the possibility that at some future date there might be a product listed to a new or amended standard.

I feel the same way, unless there exists a way to access the details of the UL standards that I'm not currently aware of. What I do, and have done, is I rely on contractor based resources such as EC&M, EC Mag, NFPA, Mike Holt, etc. for an understanding of what a particular listing is for. I know you can register for an account on UL's website, but I have yet to do so and am I'm not really sure what type of access that even grants.

For example, from the above NFPA articles, one can infer that UL 217 and UL 268 are for products that are listed for protection against common nuisance trips caused by cooking appliances in smoke alarms and smoke detectors just based on the verbiage of the actual code. Whether or not that extends to a nuisance trip caused by the steam from a bathroom shower, I do not know.

It's my understanding that the purchase of those standards are more for the manufacturer than the electrical contractor, which is why they're so expensive. The big manufacturers churning out millions of products can afford to build the cost of those standards into their products. But I could be wrong about that.

I only asked because I thought someone on the forum might have more knowledge about this issue. I appreciate the input.

 

[wwhitney]

I feel the same way, unless there exists a way to access the details of the UL standards that I'm not currently aware of.

With a free account at ul.com, you can browse the UL standards, just like you can browse the NEC (same limited annoying type of interface).

E.g. UL 217 "Smoke Alarms" is here: https://www.shopulstandards.com/ProductDetail.aspx?productId=UL217_9_S_20200102 And there's a "Digital View" icon that if you are logged in takes to you the digital viewer.

One tip on the digital viewer: for me, it's very slow to load the first page (after you agree to the terms) and somewhat slow to load each page. But if you hit the "Last >>" button to jump to the end, that preloads all the pages (takes a while). After doing that, the page updates when changing pages are quick.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jerramundi]

With a free account at ul.com, you can browse the UL standards, just like you can browse the NEC (same limited annoying type of interface).

E.g. UL 217 "Smoke Alarms" is here: https://www.shopulstandards.com/ProductDetail.aspx?productId=UL217_9_S_20200102 And there's a "Digital View" icon that if you are logged in takes to you the digital viewer.

One tip on the digital viewer: for me, it's very slow to load the first page (after you agree to the terms) and somewhat slow to load each page. But if you hit the "Last >>" button to jump to the end, that preloads all the pages (takes a while). After doing that, the page updates when changing pages are quick.

Cheers, Wayne

Didn't know that was an option. Suspected it was a possibility, just never signed up. Appreciate the input.

Good to know and good for other people to know too. That's why you guys are awesome. The people I worked for in the past never even told me about UL standards. I had to figure that stuff out on my own.

To anyone else reading this. This forum is invaluable and these guys rock. Use it to the fullest extent possible and make yourselves better and better electricians.