smokes again

[elecguy21]

Hi Can you tell me do smokes alarms and co in a 2 family if each apt. has to be connected together and the common areas, hall and cellar and the attic's smokes how do you connect those?. i'm unsure. All help welcomed.

 

[480sparky]

That's an IBC or local building code issue, not an NEC one.

 

[wbalsam1]

Hi Can you tell me do smokes alarms and co in a 2 family if each apt. has to be connected together and the common areas, hall and cellar and the attic's smokes how do you connect those?. i'm unsure. All help welcomed.

210.25 prohibits branch circuits from one dwelling unit from being in another dwelling unit. This applies to smoke alarms, as well.

Common areas are also not permitted on the dwelling unit circuits and must receive their power from a "house" panel, etc. A "common" attic space which is accessible from a common location would have it's source power from the "house" panel. Same applies for cellar/basement if "common".

Think of compartmentalizing the wiring of each dwelling unit, as well as each common area.

Refer to applicable building code in effect within the jurisdiction the project is situated for the specifics on locations of alarms, detectors, etc.:smile:

 

[mdshunk]

Interconnect the smokes in the same unit only.

The smokes in the common areas are normally part of a fire alarm system, since you'll normally also have strobes and pull stations too. Local laws will dictate whether you need any sort of notification from the common area FACP to each of the units. It's a good practice, in any event, to put at least one mini horn/strobe from the common area system in each unit.

 

[wbalsam1]

............. It's a good practice, in any event, to put at least one mini horn/strobe from the common area system in each unit.

I could stand a little lesson in code interpretation here from fellow posters.

Let me develop my side of the ensuing discussion: I interpret 210.25 to prohibit extending a "common area" mini horn/strobe into the dwelling units in 1 & 2 and also multi-family dwellings, primarily because these type occupancies are not transient in nature and are looked at differently than say a motel or hotel occupancy where 210.25 does not apply.

So, I believe that extending common area circuits into the dwelling units as outlined above is a violation of 210.25.

I'm ready for my lashes........:smile:

 

[peter d]

Hi Can you tell me do smokes alarms and co in a 2 family if each apt. has to be connected together and the common areas, hall and cellar and the attic's smokes how do you connect those?. i'm unsure. All help welcomed.

It all depends on the code in force in your area.

In my area, it goes like this. (These area all from local fire alarm codes.) Anything less than a 4 unit requires 120 volt interconnected smoke alarms in all of the common areas.

The individual dwelling units require interconnected smoke alarms in the bedrooms and common area. These are NOT interconnected to the common area smoke alarms.

 

[peter d]

I could stand a little lesson in code interpretation here from fellow posters.

Let me develop my side of the ensuing discussion: I interpret 210.25 to prohibit extending a "common area" mini horn/strobe into the dwelling units in 1 & 2 and also multi-family dwellings, primarily because these type occupancies are not transient in nature and are looked at differently than say a motel or hotel occupancy where 210.25 does not apply.

So, I believe that extending common area circuits into the dwelling units as outlined above is a violation of 210.25.

I'm ready for my lashes........:smile:

This is a mini-horn.

It is notification appliance connected to a limited energy fire alarm system. 210.25 is not even in the picture, because it's not part of a line voltage system.

In my area, we are required to install mini-horns in every bedroom of a multi-family dwelling unit, and they are activated by the building FACP.

 

[GUNNING]

Facp

Facp

I have run into this problem with smoke alarms. With the residential grade smoke detectors you can't go over a certain number of devices (<12 if your lucky, normally 5 ) AND some are not UL listed or listed by the manufacturer for installation in commercial structures ie apartments. You have to go to a FACP set up to make the smokes and annunciation happen. Its an opportunity to upsell. Its an unknown when bidding a project.

 

[mdshunk]

So, I believe that extending common area circuits into the dwelling units as outlined above is a violation of 210.25.

Yeah, I was talking about using "system" horns in the units to alert for the common areas, which are low voltage. You're likely to use a system in the common areas due to the fact that you're probably going to need pull stations.

 

[gadfly56]

I have run into this problem with smoke alarms. With the residential grade smoke detectors you can't go over a certain number of devices (<12 if your lucky, normally 5 ) AND some are not UL listed or listed by the manufacturer for installation in commercial structures ie apartments. You have to go to a FACP set up to make the smokes and annunciation happen. Its an opportunity to upsell. Its an unknown when bidding a project.

Lots of luck in New Jersey. Sure, you can put the panel in, but the New Jersey edition of the IBC (out ~ 1 year) says the smokes still have to work if you pull the panel!

I was reminded of this requirement recently when I did a riser diagram for a builder. I figured an addressable panel was just the ticket for a 3 storey+basement gut-and-rehab. Couldn't understand it when the fire subcode official rejected it. He reminded me of the change. You EC fellers have one sharp lobbyist in Trenton:grin: ! He was real nice about it. He agreed that multistation detectors in each dwelling unit would lower the overall protection in the building, but at least he let me put a horn/strobe from the building FACP in each condo.

Oh well, maybe next code cycle.

 

[electricmanscott]

I have run into this problem with smoke alarms. With the residential grade smoke detectors you can't go over a certain number of devices (<12 if your lucky, normally 5 .

Five? What brand is this? Hard to beleive.