So do you want to see how they addressed the Peninsular Issue?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MasterTheNEC

Senior Member
Very true. Still wouldn't be a bad idea to have Breakaway chords on coffee pots, I know my Fry Daddy only has like an 18 inch long cord and it is a breakaway type. 190 degree water or 400 degree oil, either way I don't want to come in contact with either.

I don't suppose it is possible to submit such proposals as appliances are outside the scope of the NEC?
Well....there are some cord attributes found in Article 422 but those are for appliances that are permitted to be cord and plug and such, to paraphrase of course.

In your case it would be better directed to the UL Standard for the actual appliance standard since you are referring to coffee pots and fry daddy type appliances which you are correct in thinking the NEC doesn't govern.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
I heard this 3ft peninsula/island rule change was brought forward to address "loft" style dwellings where most kitchen counter surfaces are not attached to a wall. Seems like something needs to be done to address such designs...but a rule that is one size fits all is going to cause lots of problems.

How about a new rule just for those "loft" style kitchen designs with no wall space.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
I really don't see what the problem is. Just require that receptacles be installed in the countertop. If there isn't anything already, somebody needs to manufacture a tombstone type housing suitable for that use- maybe a pop-up? And too bad if it offends some decorator's senses.

And if there isn't anything suitable- just because nobody makes anything like that never stopped the NEC from requiring it before. :D

-Hal
 

SceneryDriver

Senior Member
I really don't see what the problem is. Just require that receptacles be installed in the countertop. If there isn't anything already, somebody needs to manufacture a tombstone type housing suitable for that use- maybe a pop-up? And too bad if it offends some decorator's senses.

And if there isn't anything suitable- just because nobody makes anything like that never stopped the NEC from requiring it before. :D

-Hal
IN the countertop is a terrible idea in a food prep area / kitchen. Food will get trapped in the receptacle, and cleaning around it will always be a pain. I wonder if there's a market for retractable ceiling mounted cords? ;)


SceneryDriver
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
I really don't see what the problem is. Just require that receptacles be installed in the countertop. If there isn't anything already, somebody needs to manufacture a tombstone type housing suitable for that use- maybe a pop-up? And too bad if it offends some decorator's senses.

And if there isn't anything suitable- just because nobody makes anything like that never stopped the NEC from requiring it before. :D

-Hal
Hubbell has a listed countertop pop up receptacle for this application. There are other pop ups that imply that they are listed for the purpose, but they are not actually listed for countertop use. The product testing requires liquid spill testing in both the retracted and extended positions for countertop pop ups.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Hubbell has a listed countertop pop up receptacle for this application. There are other pop ups that imply that they are listed for the purpose, but they are not actually listed for countertop use. The product testing requires liquid spill testing in both the retracted and extended positions for countertop pop ups.
Where in the code does it state that it must be listed for spill. I assumed it did but how is one to know that it is required.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Hubbell makes one but these pop ups are expensive. The nicer ones are $200-300 . The direct wired ones even more..

The hubbel one is direct wired and IMO it would have to be to comply with art. 210.52

http://ecatalog.hubbell-wiring.com/press/pdfs/Original_WLFTS004.pdf
Which part of 210.52?

Where in the code does it state that it must be listed for spill. I assumed it did but how is one to know that it is required.
It doesn't but Hubbell mentions that theirs complies with UL 498 Section 146:

Built and listed to be water
resistant to a half gallon of
liquid spilled on the device


Maybe after the CMP gets done fighting over the difference between "and" and "or" they can think about a real solution that's already out there. :happysad:

-Hal
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
It seems every code cycle they're changing something in a kitchen.... makes me wonder how I didn't starve to death or electrocute myself growing up in a kitchen built in 1953...
Very well put. Every time they mess around with kitchen countertop outlet locations they get it all screwed up , and my belief is they are old fat guys who haven't messed with tools for a long long time now and don't have any business being on a code panel at all. You CMP'S listening to me? Macmikeman has spoken.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
24" along the wall AND no more than 36" to any point on the countertop. If somebody wants a sacrificial altar then they need to install pop-ups.

Problem solved.

-Hal
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Most islands & peninsulas are not longer than 6'. One in the middle would make this compliant.

The issue I see with the 2017 is that technical a receptacle at the end of a peninsula or island is not compliant. It must be installed on the long dimension.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Most islands & peninsulas are not longer than 6'. One in the middle would make this compliant.
If you're talking about the new proposed language in the OP, my interpretation is that it involves measuring from the receptacle to any point on the countertop. So for a 6' long countertop, the far corners would be more than 36" away from the middle. [Unless it is a semicircular countertop. :)]

Cheers, Wayne
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Just thinking here, if someone did not want exposed outlets, couldn't they be mounted in like a semicircle shaped lazy Susan type device in the wall? Rotated one way, you would have your normal backsplash. Rotated 180 degrees, and you have receptacles showing. Wiring coming from underneath in the wall cavity so as to not get twisted up, and the Lazy Susan could only rotate 180 degrees one way before it locks into place, then could be rotated back to have a normal looking wall or backsplash.

Such a device could also be mounted in the counter. By its half-spherical (or cylindrical) nature, the receptacles would be above the countertop, and be much harder to spill water or other liquids into.
.
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Drop down with task lighting from ceiling that has gfi circuit in it. The circuit could be retractable, or a pedestal off the floor, or get with the stone contractor and make a stone box like a floor box. Or...
Looks like a rule looking for a problem.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Where in the code does it state that it must be listed for spill. I assumed it did but how is one to know that it is required.
406.5(E) requires that they be listed for use in countertops. The countertop listing requires passing the liquid spill test. Pop-ups listed for "work surfaces" do not require passing the liquid spill test.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Which part of 210.52?
It doesn't but Hubbell mentions that theirs complies with UL 498 Section 146:

Built and listed to be water
resistant to a half gallon of
liquid spilled on the device

....
-Hal
While 210.52 does not have that requirement, 406.5(E) does. It is part of the listing requirements for a listed countertop pop-up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top