Solar electric

[petersonra]

I was rooting around on the Internet and discovered that I can have a solar electric system installed at my house and have the state and federal government pickup the bulk of the cost (about 60%).

The state has also banned local governments from including the cost of solar electric systems in the assessed valuations so no property tax increases, AND Illinois has net metering, so I can sell electricity back to the utility at the same price they charge me.

Anyone know a reputable solar electric contractor in Northern Illinois?

 

[satcom]

I was rooting around on the Internet and discovered that I can have a solar electric system installed at my house and have the state and federal government pickup the bulk of the cost (about 60%).

The state has also banned local governments from including the cost of solar electric systems in the assessed valuations so no property tax increases, AND Illinois has net metering, so I can sell electricity back to the utility at the same price they charge me.

Anyone know a reputable solar electric contractor in Northern Illinois?

Bob, that same deal has been around here, and in my town only 3 or 4 people took advantage of it, the deals have changed this year, not as much money as in the past years, but still a pretty good deal. I think consumers really don't understand the great paybacks and continued revenue they produce, one family in town pays $37 a month on the solar install abd gets back 40 t0 60 a month in power revenue, and they never have an electric bill, I think it is a great deal for a young family.

 

[petersonra]

Bob, that same deal has been around here, and in my town only 3 or 4 people took advantage of it, the deals have changed this year, not as much money as in the past years, but still a pretty good deal. I think consumers really don't understand the great paybacks and continued revenue they produce, one family in town pays $37 a month on the solar install abd gets back 40 t0 60 a month in power revenue, and they never have an electric bill, I think it is a great deal for a young family.

$40 to 60 a month would imply they are generating an excess of 400 to 600 kw-hrs per month. with the normal usage of perhaps 1000 kw-hrs, that would mean they are generating 1500 kw-hrs per month. That would seem to suggest they have about a 12000 watt system, unless they are in the deep south and have a fancy tracking system for the arrays. Even then is probably 8000 watts.

Thats is not a cheap system. maybe $50k. Even if you got someone else to pay 60% of it, you still can't pay it off at $37 a month.

Numbers do not add up.

 

[iwire]

Bob the numbers can work pretty good as long as someone else is footing the majority of the bill.

I installed a 50 KW system and the payback should be pretty short if it produces what is expected.

Here it is here.

http://view2.fatspaniel.net/PECI/burkeoil/HostedAdminView.html?&eid=164519

There seems to be some issue with the reporting software as the peak numbers are very different depending on if you look at the day, week or month.

 

[satcom]

$40 to 60 a month would imply they are generating an excess of 400 to 600 kw-hrs per month. with the normal usage of perhaps 1000 kw-hrs, that would mean they are generating 1500 kw-hrs per month. That would seem to suggest they have about a 12000 watt system, unless they are in the deep south and have a fancy tracking system for the arrays. Even then is probably 8000 watts.

Thats is not a cheap system. maybe $50k. Even if you got someone else to pay 60% of it, you still can't pay it off at $37 a month.
They get back money not pay money every month, and it varies fom month to month


Numbers do not add up.

when you have a huge chunk paid by the incentive money, the numbers may even be low. You really have to talk to people that have existing systems not what some claim

 

[satcom]

Bob the numbers can work pretty good as long as someone else is footing the majority of the bill.

I installed a 50 KW system and the payback should be pretty short if it produces what is expected.

Here it is here.

http://view2.fatspaniel.net/PECI/burkeoil/HostedAdminView.html?&eid=164519

There seems to be some issue with the reporting software as the peak numbers are very different depending on if you look at the day, week or month.

Good stats Bob, but as you say a lot depends on the system.

 

[dereckbc]

Bob you might want to dig a little deeper into the numbers, and look at true cost.

I have done a lot of solar design in TX, OK, and NM where the solar insolation (Sun Hour Days) are about twice what you get in N IL, and electric rates half you what you pay. In other words for a given solar panel wattage, a system in TX will generate twice the Kwh in a given day.

In every residential system I have been involved with in this area even with the rebates, incentives, and net metering no one pay s less than 2 times more what they were paying the POCO. Some goes as high as 6 times more.

Let me give you an example. The last home I did used an average of 1700 Kwh per month or about 60 Kwh per day. So there monthly bill runs about $200 per month to the POCO. The customer wanted to replace 50% with solar. That requires an 8000 watt solar array to replace 50% of their average daily usage. After rebates and incentives the system cost $42,840 dollars. They took a 30 year loan at 7% and their loan payment is $285 per month, plus about $115 per month to the POCO. They now pay around $400 per month for electricity for the next 30 years.

Now for some more pain. That $42,840 investment only raised their property value $15,000. So that means an immediate $27,840 loss in equity.

They are not happy campers. I am not happy either because that is yours and mine tax dollars being waisted.

 

[iwire]

Dereck, you can't get the rebates unless the numbers work.

The 50 KW system cost the customer about $400K and as I understand it they already got about 60% of that back from the state.

So now there cost was more like $160K so his payback time is not that bad considering the rate he pays for electric in his area.

 

[mthead]

Solar electric

What you discovered re;the cost out of pocket is likely only going to get better at least over the course of the next 2 years.
With the current push to "go green", incentives from past years and new ones are coming online-Solar will be sold because power companies want to show they're enviormentally friendly,local and state gov't wants to prove they are more behind this than ever before,and it will be part and parcel of the Federal Rescue money being doled out to the states.
My point here is that ELECTRICIANS need to become solar friendly-familiar with the installation of the new systems -because at a time when work is not as plentiful as it has been this is something you NEED to add to your repitoire of work.
There are companies out there who do the system work,reap the benfits of cost profit of installing the system and yet--they can't hook up without the "licensed electrician " doing the final line vol.hookups.
The problem here is that wether you realize it or not--you the licensed electrician are responsible for all of it -i.e. liable-but you didn't reap the benefits and when a day comes up in court for one reason or another...,wel you're going to be expected to know what it is that you took responsibilty for.

Point is--Solar companies should get their electrical license or Electricians should not let opportunity pass them by.

 

[satcom]

Dereck, you can't get the rebates unless the numbers work.

The 50 KW system cost the customer about $400K and as I understand it they already got about 60% of that back from the state.

So now there cost was more like $160K so his payback time is not that bad considering the rate he pays for electric in his area.

Yes, all three of the systems we have here in town, all had to submit the numbers before the application was even consideres.

some Utilities offer additional funds to get back green money, by sheading some peeking plants, all a big numbers game. but you can be assured no money will come unless the numbers work.

 

[iwire]

Yes, all three of the systems we have here in town, all had to submit the numbers before the application was even consideres.

Yeah that is how it went. my end was the electrical design and installation, my desk was beside the guy that worked the numbers. He would look at a number of different jobs and many could not meet the requirements for payback.


We also did a small job at a dairy farm where the farmer could get money from the state program and more money from some USDA program as well.

We actually started a 500 KW system on a school but the funding evaporated with the decline of the stock market .... I was moving into a PM roll, now I am running around fixing security systems. :roll:

 

[dereckbc]

Dereck, you can't get the rebates unless the numbers work.

Iwire I understand that, but I was addressing Persona BOB, not Iwire Bob.

Not sure how things work in the Northeast, personally I have doubts about 60% funding. Phoenix AZ is the best I know of because APS the POCO pays $3 per watt, plus the Fed 30% rebate.

But here in the Southwest electrical shops DO NOT install the systems, Roofers install them using minimum wage workers or below minimum wage undocumented workers, and the roofing contractor has one LV or Solar Tech on staff to pull permits and oversee the jobs. Electrical shops are completely cut out of the competition.

But here is what really gripes me. For every watt of renewable energy is installed, a POCO must build conventional power plant to replace it and be on hot stand-by at a moments notice. So there is nothing being saved, it only adds to the cost of energy in th eform of higher taxes and utility rates.

 

[iwire]

But here in the Southwest electrical shops DO NOT install the systems, Roofers install them using minimum wage workers or below minimum wage undocumented workers, and the roofing contractor has one LV or Solar Tech on staff to pull permits and oversee the jobs. Electrical shops are completely cut out of the competition.

Not legal here even though there are many trying to jump into it without licensing.

PART I. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT


TITLE XX. PUBLIC SAFETY AND GOOD ORDER


CHAPTER 141. SUPERVISION OF ELECTRICIANS


Chapter 141: Section 1A. Licensure requirement; exceptions


Section 1A. No person, firm or corporation shall enter into, engage in, or work at the business or occupation of installing wires, conduits, apparatus, devices, fixtures, or other appliances for carrying or using electricity for light, heat, power, fire warning or security system purposes, unless such person, firm or corporation shall be licensed by the state examiners of electricians in accordance with this chapter ..........

Kind of rules out the unlicensed. :smile:

For every watt of renewable energy is installed, a POCO must build conventional power plant to replace it and be on hot stand-by at a moments notice. So there is nothing being saved, it only adds to the cost of energy in th eform of higher taxes and utility rates.

Well I can't argue that I don't have any facts.

But what is you answer then?

Give up, don't try?

No new technology starts out as good as it gets, but you can't get better until you try. As Jon pointed out in another thread other methods like load shedding could be developed etc.

I just get discouraged when people start putting down the efforts to try and get away from where we are now. Now I am no dreamer, I know a lot of the current 'green trend' is shame but it will never change if we don't make the effort.

Now all that said, I will gladly make a living installing PV or wind or whatever for those that want it. :smile:

 

[dereckbc]

I said: For every watt of renewable energy is installed, a POCO must build conventional power plant to replace it and be on hot stand-by at a moments notice.

Well I can't argue that I don't have any facts.

This link might help. But the short of it is TX is the largest renewable energy provider in the USA and on or about Feb 27 2008 the winds suddenly stopped and blacked out a large portion of the state. It took controllers several hours to switch in reserve power from other providers. The lesson learned is you have to have conventional power in hot stand-by at a moments notice to replace a renewable source like sun and wind.

It makes since if you think about it for a minute. Think sunny So Cal in summer a nice sunny day, everyone’s PV systems cranking, then cloud covers rolls in and all that power is gone. It’s got to come from somewhere or Blackout.

But what is you answer then?

Give up, don't try?

No new technology starts out as good as it gets, but you can't get better until you try. As Jon pointed out in another thread other methods like load shedding could be developed etc.

No Bob not give up. To make renewable doable, there has to be a storage medium that does not exist yet. Some day battery technology will become a reality for long term storage. Until that time, it is not realistic IMO.

For now nuclear power is our answer. All the fuel we need is right here in the USA. In fact we have 30 to 40 years worth already processed and stored in the form of spent rods. The next thousand years or so of fuel is sitting in Utah waiting to be picked up. Those jobs building and running a plant are high paying quality jobs you can make a life long career out of. Better yet you cannot export those jobs overseas.

The fuel rod storage is a man-made political problem. Our policy does not allow us to reprocess the spent fuel rods. A new rod is about 11% uranium, and when spent is down to 5 or 6 %. Basically we still have 50% of what has already been processed just sitting around. Recycle it like France does and most of the problem goes away. Nuclear fuel is cheap around 2 to 3 cents per Kwh compared to 5 to 7 for coal.

As for vehicle fuel, we already have the technology and generating capacity for EV's to replace our light vehicle fleet. Not golf carts type vehicles, full size speedsters with all the bells and whistles that go 300 miles between charges. You can buy one today.

If I were the Energy Czar , I would clear all road blocks to nuclear power plant construction, allow private contractors to re-process spent fuel rods. Remove all subsidies for renewable energy sources and let the free market have its way. In addition I would offer $1 to $10 B bounty or prize if you will to the first company or person to revolutionize battery storage, say double the current weight to watt-hour ratio of todays Lithium-Ion technology with 10,000 recharge cycles with only 20% loss of designed capacity. Trust me, they are close now, they just need a carrot, not a hand out.

Problem solved. Anything else I can do for you today? :grin:

 

[ishium 80439]

.

Problem solved. Anything else I can do for you today? :grin:

Yeah, I can't get the last pickle out of the jar. Any thoughts?

But seriously I think you have a point about a storage medium. I posted something here a while back about solar and I made a comment to the effect that battery technology has increased dramatically and someone corrected me that solar systems are still basically using the lead-acid battery of yore. If cell phones went from needing to carrying a suitcase full of batteries around to as thin as a credit card why hasn't other battery technology followed the same curve? (this isn't a rhetorical question, I'm really curious)

 

[dereckbc]

I posted something here a while back about solar and I made a comment to the effect that battery technology has increased dramatically and someone corrected me that solar systems are still basically using the lead-acid battery of yore. If cell phones went from needing to carrying a suitcase full of batteries around to as thin as a credit card why hasn't other battery technology followed the same curve? (this isn't a rhetorical question, I'm really curious)

That someone might of been me.

Litium batteries have made dramatic improvements, but there are still three major drawbacks to then.

Cost
Higher internal impedence.
Service Life.

Lead acid technolgy blows Lithium out of the water in those three respects. However there are several companies that have prototypes already that overcome all the drawbacks except expense. The problem lies with the anode and cathode materials. Nano particles are the answer and the race is on.

LG is just now releasing a battery that uses the lithium manganese spinel for its cathode. They are made for the EV industry, and several other companies are also working on manganese spinel, including NEC and Samsung.

I think the revolutionary step is 5 to 10 years out.

 

[dereckbc]

Yeah, I can't get the last pickle out of the jar. Any thoughts?

Turn the jar upside down over the sink silly.

 

[LarryFine]

It makes since if you think about it for a minute. Think sunny So Cal in summer a nice sunny day, everyone?s PV systems cranking, then cloud covers rolls in and all that power is gone. It?s got to come from somewhere or Blackout.

Capacitors?

 

[iwire]

No Bob not give up. To make renewable doable, there has to be a storage medium that does not exist yet. Some day battery technology will become a reality for long term storage. Until that time, it is not realistic IMO.

I just have more faith in our ability to come up with answers that have yet to be even considered. One way to get those answers quicker is to jump in and force the issue.

I don't disagree that nuclear power will have to become a much bigger part of our energy needs.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I just have more faith in our ability to come up with answers that have yet to be even considered. One way to get those answers quicker is to jump in and force the issue.

I don't disagree that nuclear power will have to become a much bigger part of our energy needs.

three mile island and chernoybl effectively ended nuclear development in the
us. a very real problem with nukes isn't the fuel pellets. there's ways of
dealing with that... but after 40 years, the nuke itself gets pretty brittle from
the neutron flux. san onofre unit one was decommissioned in 1992 and there
it sits. what to do with it? it's now 2009, and here's where it's at, from the
NRC update on unit one:

"The licensee was unable to make arrangements for shipping the reactor
pressure vessel to disposal because of the size and weight of the vessel
and shipping package. The licensee plans to store the vessel onsite for the
foreseeable future, as long as licensed activities are ongoing. "

and people get their undies in a wad over a discarded plastic bottle, and how
long it'll be in the landfill

as for nuclear power, i see it as the cleanest, most viable source of energy
available at the present time. i've also worked for public utilities, and seen
the operations personnel in action.

we're gonna have to work on that aspect of it a bit, in my not so humble
opinion.